So, i have only been here for a month ( officially ) but i have lurked this site for around 6 months. When i first came to Emptees there was a huge storm brewing and a ton of fight threads/rip threads and countless other things that seemed to be taking Emptees in a really bad direction. As i saw in some threads asking for change and even having some members leave due to some actions on this site by others. I know it is very easy to act tough over the internet, i tend to hold my guard and do it sometimes as i did yesterday when someone posted a shirt that rubbed me the wrong way. My point to this is that i would love to see this become more friendly and more about t shirts. I find nothing wrong with movie threads or any other thread that isn't offending people, but i would really like to see more critiques and comments on actual design related things. There are a lot of people i really look up to on Emptees as well as other artists off of Emptees that inspire me to design. SWH left a comment on one of my shirts the day that not only made me happy because i am a fan of his work, but it also made me want to redo my shirt and make it better. The comment he made was a simple one, but it struck something in me and made me want to redo my shirt and do it better. You can find the shirt below. His comment was a simple "not bad not bad" which i took as " it is not a bad design, but i am also not going to "love" it because it still needs work. He may not even "love" it after i complete the new one, but its the fact that he took the time to comment and share his thoughts, which i do not see often. http://emptees.com/tees/149051-ultimate-warrior-sub I am sorry if this post is long, but i really want to get my point across. I would love to hear from some of you veterans about some topics i have been thinking of lately. If any of you would be so kind as to answer some of these i would appreciate it, and i am sure the other artist would also. 1. What makes a design a GREAT design? What makes you want to "love" the design/ buy the shirt once it is printed,post the design on a blog because you love it, or even tweet the post to a friend and tell them to check it out? I am not looking for an answer like " because it looked cool", i really want to know what about certain designs grab you and pull you in. 2. What do you think is the most important aspect of designing a tshirt? Is it all in the line work, or does it lie in the concept and the execution of the design no matter how good the artist is at the line work? 3. What is the most common trend that you personally see young designers making? 4. This question is for people that BUY art to print. What makes you want to buy a design from an artist? Is it the name of the artist and their reputation as being a great designer or is it the design itself? Does the attitude of the artist have any effect on your purchase? How important is professionalism to you when dealing with an artist? Many times i will get an email that will simply say " hey dude, your shit looks fucking cool, how much money does that design cost n shit?" Most of the time i am not only weary about working with bands like that, but i reply with a no thanks. 5. And lastly, as a designer myself my main goal would to be able to design for all of my favorite brands/bands while working my regular job. Getting to the top takes a lot of works as i have seen from many of the veterans on this site. So in your opinion should young designers be focusing on submitting designs to their favorite bands ( i am talking big name bands, not local) or should they stick to trying to make a name for them self and end up having these bands come to them? Dobi, if you think my post is horrible please feel free to delete it. I am just trying to get some talk on the forum about shirt design and maybe get some good critiques and advice going. I hope everyone is having a great night/day Ps. please look over my grammar, i hope its not to bad. 2009-11-08T13:05:09-05:00 39 2009-11-06T20:34:07-05:00 true 0 96221 false false 65121 65121 1 2009-11-21T02:38:50-05:00 933 I am aware that many of you hate reading long posts. So i do apologize. 96221 Post 2009-11-06T20:34:48-05:00 3149121 65121 2009-11-06T20:34:48-05:00 1. I tend to love designs that have a lot of originality and personal vision rather than an overall trendiness, even though both can still be present in trendy designs. A solid concept is always a love too. 96221 Post 2009-11-06T20:49:14-05:00 3149241 1056 2009-11-06T20:49:14-05:00 it was a long but good read, i hope you get some answers, i'd like to see some opinions from the 'veterans' too, should be interesting 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:20:34-05:00 3149481 8874 2009-11-06T21:20:34-05:00 Will post over breakfast 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:23:55-05:00 3149541 14 2009-11-06T21:23:55-05:00 nice thread! im looking forward to see what the veterans have to say 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:28:36-05:00 3149611 72101 2009-11-06T21:28:36-05:00 <blockquote><cite>dobi said:</cite> Will post over breakfast</blockquote> One of your fancy $25 breakfasts I bet! 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:40:41-05:00 3149711 44251 2009-11-06T21:40:41-05:00 26 fucko! 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:42:21-05:00 3149731 782 2009-11-06T21:42:21-05:00 <blockquote><cite>OvenRude said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>dobi said:</cite> Will post over breakfast</blockquote> One of your fancy $25 breakfasts I bet!</blockquote> haha 96221 Post 2009-11-06T21:48:39-05:00 3149771 8874 2009-11-06T21:48:39-05:00 i want read it but not now, dude! 96221 Post 2009-11-06T22:22:24-05:00 3149961 52001 2009-11-06T22:22:24-05:00 And Dobi will forever be known for having 26-Dollar breakfasts. Jokes aside though, I also noticed that comment SWH wrote on your tee when I first saw it, and thought it was pretty cool. I might have even felt jealous (SWH rarely gives critique on my shirts haha), as I always find ways to improve, and I look up to what the big guys here have to say about my designs. I hope you get the answers you need. 96221 Post 2009-11-06T22:40:44-05:00 3150081 24821 2009-11-06T22:41:57-05:00 As this is Tshirt related i dont mind opening a can of thought beans. I guess the kinda designs that tickle my trousers are ones that have a story, reflect an emotion or just plainly illustrated to perfection. I love nature inspired designs... http://www.emptees.com/tees/153171-the-easy-way-to-travel perfect example! Alex seems to draw inspiration from personal experiances which i really admire! watching the evolution on here has been fun.. haha someone should make an emptees evolution shirt like darwinism but through all the trends. My personal experiance has been odd. I started off emulating styles, thinking i was adding my own touch.. then realising im nothing different to alot of artists on here. It's a constant struggle, but I've learnt the more you draw (and think.. dont forget to think) what was i on about? hah.. yes emulation - strangulation. Its bad... and it doesnt work in the long run... It's about as useful as having a girlfriend. You Get alot of love til' they point out your flaws and rip you to shreds. So go get a new girfriend and make a better go of it ;-)... haha in that case none of us designers will have hope. Oh well... whats life without love eh? 96221 Post 2009-11-06T22:48:18-05:00 3150151 6917 2009-11-06T22:48:18-05:00 Great read dude, totally agree with you. I will be commissioned to do work for bands/companies but will put extra work in just because I know I want good responses when I post them here.I find myself now looking back on designs I did like just a few weeks ago, and wanting to rework them. This site makes me personally, want to improve. Critiques/solid comments are stellar. Its encouraging. Example: "Great job dude, maybe try *insert suggestion* to add more depth to it." 96221 Post 2009-11-06T22:48:23-05:00 3150161 51031 2009-11-06T22:49:48-05:00 definitely concept over linework...you could have the best linework in the world but it won't mean jack on a shirt unless the concept is trendy... obviously the best have both concept and linework...but it's easier to sell a good (usually funny or something) concept than it is to sell a good drawing... 96221 Post 2009-11-07T01:26:09-05:00 3151151 33471 2009-11-07T01:26:09-05:00 btw great thread...hope it gets a lot of action...love to see more t-shirt art inspired threads here...just one opinion... 96221 Post 2009-11-07T01:30:08-05:00 3151171 33471 2009-11-07T01:30:08-05:00 wow you asked a lot of questions haha. you numbered 5 questions but each number has like 2-3 questions each. ------------------------------------------------------------------- as to your ultimate warrior design, i feel like there was plenty room for improvement, BUT you definitely captured the warriors aesthetic better than anyone i had seen on here yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ill do my best to answer some of your questions... 1. the first thing you need to understand about great design is that it is not nearly as subjective as great art. art has zero boundaries, rules, or reason. design on the other hand implies a purpose, so you can actually judge how effective (good) a design is, where as the quality of art is 100% based in opinion. you cannot simply answer the question "what makes a design good" because there are unlimited variables from piece to piece that make the rules different. what is the purpose, who is it for, who is the demo, ect. forget "loves" on this site, that is in no way indicative of the quality of work. the majority of people "loving" designs on this site are layman that have no idea what they are talking about, they just like the pretty colors. ill try to give my imput on questions 2-20 a little later. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T02:04:37-05:00 3151301 1106 2009-11-07T02:07:26-05:00 This is going to be a long one...but I hope at least someone takes the time to read it all. 1. Questions like these are always hard to answer, but I think it's important to keep a few things in mind when dealing with such a subjective thing such as art/design. Like anything in life, there are certain rules and/or guidelines pertaining to design. Things like color, composition, execution, spacing etc. all come in to play. I think the man thing that separates a "good" design from a "great" design is whether or not I feel like the piece shows a grasp and understanding of the fundamentals of art and design. I'm not saying that you have to be able to draw things in a photorealistic way, but having an understanding of scale and perspective is a must when it comes to good design. Composition also plays a huge part in how something looks. A good comparison that I could make is Benjamin Lande and Josh Belanger. On the one hand you have Ben who has a completely unique style. He has a certain look. His art is far from anatomically correct, but everything is cohesive in terms of composition and scale. On the other hand you have Josh, who's art is stylized, but a little more realistic looking. Both are very strong designers in their own respects. Another thing I really look at is whether or not the subject matter engages me or not. There are a lot of things out there that look like they are just "slapped on a shirt" with no real forethought. Almost as if someone was just doodling in a sketchbook one day and said "hey i think i'll throw that on a shirt template and put it on emptees." I think that when there is planning involved in your work, and time spent, it really shows through. Here's one example of something that I think was just hastily done, and very poorly executed. The line work is very messy and seems to have no real cohesive sense of color. http://emptees.com/tees/146921-bomberman-like-art Also, I think there is a huge issue lately with things being overcomplicated. Dan Mumford's work is very intricate and line heavy, and thats his thing. However, every is trying to mimic it now and everyone also seems to think that for something to be good, it has to have a shitload of detail. But once again, this goes along with how much time is spent on the piece. I'm sure guys like Mumford, Godmachine, and Alex Norman spend hours pouring over their linework, which is fine because they obviously do it very well. But on the other hand you have guys like Dobi and Sam Kaufman who really understand the value of simplicity. http://emptees.com/tees/22421-thursday-broken-vinyl Dobi's "broken vinyl" design for thursday remains to be one of my favorite things that he's ever done. It clearly shows a grasp on simplicity, and especially composition. Everything is cohesive because all the elements are done in a realistic manner. It is also very effective in that it's one color, which if done right I think is more powerful than having 7 or 8 colors. 2. I'm going to tie in what I said in question one with this. Putting too much importance on one thing can be a major pitfall. You might have the tightest linework around, but if you don't know what you're doing with color or text placement, it can take away from your tight linework and ruin the design. I think the piece as a whole is the most important part of design. You need to be able to think big picture and not just get lost on one particular detail. A design is sort of like a team, in that it can't rely on just one part, but if one part fails in has the potential to bring the whole team down with it. 3. I don't know if you meant a common mistake young designers make or what trends everyone is following...but I guess I'll talk about mistakes because everyone already knows what the trends are right now. I think the most common mistake young designers make is biting other people's style. I still struggle with it, and I hate being compared to other people who have more recognition than myself. Being unique in such an easily accessible profession is growing increasingly hard these days. Find something you do well, and stick to it. There is a difference between being influenced by someone, and copying their particular style. It's hard, but try to find something that is unique to you, and it will set you apart. 4. Professionalism is always appreciated, I think with whatever business you're in. I always appreciate people being professional and courteous, and I always try to be as an artist. When considering buying something, I take more into consideration in terms of the issues I talked about in question 1 than anything else. For marketability's sake, I think the name of the artist comes into play because having an artist who is "hot" right now can't hurt you. However, I do think that if you're using an artist because of the name, it has some merit. Obviously if someone is really well known it's because they do good work that people like, so using an artist for their name isn't necessarily a faux pas. 5. In the beginning you might have to just take whatever work you can get to establish a portfolio to have as a jump-off point. I started doing things for local bands for not a lot of money, or as favors to friends. As time went on I accumulated a small portfolio that got some recognition by a few bands and record labels and it's expanded from there ever since. I don't think you should base your clientele on whether or not they're your favorite band. Most of the people I do work for I don't listen to, but thats okay because it's still work and I'll still do my best to give them exactly what they want. You also shouldn't be opposed to trying to contact people you want to work with to pitch them ideas, because the worst they can do is say no. Just remember to keep it professional and try not to "pester" people as it were. If you hate getting emails that say "hey dude, your shits cool, how much money is that and shit?" then don't be sending emails to bands or labels saying "hey your band fucking rules, like can I totally do a design for you?" Pitch your design and let the work speak for itself. You're going to get more rejections than you are going to get things accepted so just be ready for that. It's just how it goes. Even the best of us get rejected, its part of being a designer. I'll end with saying that I think a huge part of being in this profession is like anything, hard hard work. Do research, study techniques, if you're sitting on your ass watching tv, sketch while you're doing it. I don't believe people when they say "I can't draw." If you can write, you can draw. You can learn to do pretty much anything if you take the time. It's a scientific fact that once you do something 30 times it becomes a habit that your brain can recall at any time. So if you sit there and draw 30 hands, you'll be pretty damn good at it. Practice makes perfect. If you really want to be good, put in the man hours and be dedicated to it. Anyway, thats my two cents, and kudos to the people that actually read my mammoth response to this post. I hope at least someone can take something useful from what I said. I'm gonna go drink a beer now. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T02:24:48-05:00 3151351 1541 2009-11-07T02:30:39-05:00 best thing I have read in a while ^ this is my new favourite thread 96221 Post 2009-11-07T02:47:47-05:00 3151421 10606 2009-11-07T02:47:47-05:00 I deleted it because I thought it sounded stupid. Developing the eye is important because with out it you are just guessing what will work. It's better to just look at real stuff, and then think of how to use shades and light, and dots, and lines and all that. Otherwise you squiggling with no goal. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T03:00:29-05:00 3151531 506 2009-11-07T03:00:29-05:00 <blockquote><cite>skull with hair said:</cite> wow you asked a lot of questions haha. you numbered 5 questions but each number has like 2-3 questions each. ------------------------------------------------------------------- as to your ultimate warrior design, i feel like there was plenty room for improvement, BUT you definitely captured the warriors aesthetic better than anyone i had seen on here yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ill do my best to answer some of your questions... 1. the first thing you need to understand about great design is that it is not nearly as subjective as great art. art has zero boundaries, rules, or reason. design on the other hand implies a purpose, so you can actually judge how effective (good) a design is, where as the quality of art is 100% based in opinion. you cannot simply answer the question "what makes a design good" because there are unlimited variables from piece to piece that make the rules different. what is the purpose, who is it for, who is the demo, ect. forget "loves" on this site, that is in no way indicative of the quality of work. the majority of people "loving" designs on this site are layman that have no idea what they are talking about, they just like the pretty colors. ill try to give my imput on questions 2-20 a little later.</blockquote> perfect....exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping for... 96221 Post 2009-11-07T03:05:50-05:00 3151551 33471 2009-11-07T03:05:50-05:00 I will say the one thing that school messed up for me was separating the fundamentals, and teaching them separately, one week on light, one week on color, one week on line and so on. They are all linked together and messing with one will have a cascade effect on other parts of the drawing. I'll try to break it down a little. Light+Form+ Volume+Value+Direction Start with light. Light will go until it hits something, where it hits has the most light and where it dosen't hit has the least light. Light that hits light gets brighter and shadow that hits shadow gets darker. The properties of what the light hits will change how much or little light gets threw the object and how much light or how little is reflected. Opaque and translucent Looking at what happens to light in a pool is a good example of how complicated it can get on an uneven translucent reflective surface. Form So if you think of your own face ( I assume you all have one) The light from the front will hit the tip of the nose first (this is why in anime all you see is a tiny little shadow and no nose at all) , then the light hits the forehead and chin then lips and eyelids about the same time. So now that you have light and dark that is your value. But you can't just go from dark to light without knowing in what direction to curve them, and you can't do that without knowing what the volume of what you are drawing is. faces are not flat, you need to curve around it. Like math the orders of operation are important. Just be aware of how what you are working on is effecting other things in your drawings. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T03:33:03-05:00 3151651 506 2009-11-07T03:38:06-05:00 To anyone who might get overwhelmed by the length of Sol Amstutz's post, DON'T SKIP it. It makes a lot of sense. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T04:33:29-05:00 3151841 24821 2009-11-07T04:33:29-05:00 I can trace my style now to a teacher I had that would always encourage me to do more. It was a 3hr studio class with the normal setup, a bowl of fruit on some draped cloth on a box. I would sketch it out and then quit, the teacher would always come around and be like add more, add more, add more. This pissed me off at first, but at the end of the class my more version was always better. I have moved on from my 3hrs of doing more to 10hrs, 10hrs of anything is hard, drawing is no different. Take the time to do it right, and pay attention to what is going on, and pimp the fuck out of it. The detail heavy look may be overwhelming at first but it is quite calculated, each line grouping is working in tandem to control the eyes movement around the piece. Also it is not life size. These are for shirts remember, big jumbo ones not 800x400 sized shirts. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T04:41:48-05:00 3151871 506 2009-11-07T04:51:54-05:00 I forgot to post at breakfast. Good read so far, will post when not on iPhone. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T11:08:25-05:00 3153541 14 2009-11-07T11:08:25-05:00 <blockquote><cite>dobi said:</cite> I forgot to post at breakfast. Good read so far, will post when not on iPhone.</blockquote> hahah i was waiting all night for the mid $26 breakfast post. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T11:09:24-05:00 3153571 2870 2009-11-07T11:09:24-05:00 Thanks everyone for the replies so far! All of you guys are very helpful and i appreciate the thought you have put into your posts. I am quite busy at the moment but i will be back later to discuss and hopefully read some more posts. I cant thank you guys enough for taking the time to write out your thoughts and lend some thoughts to others:) And SWH you may be right, i did put like questions up there haha. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T11:23:38-05:00 3153711 65121 2009-11-07T11:23:38-05:00 <blockquote><cite>jeremiah was a said:</cite> best thing I have read in a while ^ this is my new favourite thread</blockquote> awesome thread, makes me want to draw, draw and draw 96221 Post 2009-11-07T11:26:03-05:00 3153731 72101 2009-11-07T11:26:03-05:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> The detail heavy look may be overwhelming at first but it is quite calculated, each line grouping is working in tandem to control the eyes movement around the piece. Also it is not life size. These are for shirts remember, big jumbo ones not 800x400 sized shirts.</blockquote> this.... I think some people confuse what some like to call 'doodling' and what really is a calculated way of working... 96221 Post 2009-11-07T14:28:00-05:00 3155701 33471 2009-11-07T14:28:00-05:00 <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> To anyone who might get overwhelmed by the length of Sol Amstutz's post, DON'T SKIP it. It makes a lot of sense.</blockquote> Uzi speakeths the truth...almost felt like he was talking to me at some points... 96221 Post 2009-11-07T14:28:44-05:00 3155721 33471 2009-11-07T14:28:44-05:00 i think i just learned more from this thread than i have in almost a year of college 96221 Post 2009-11-07T15:01:07-05:00 3156011 51721 2009-11-07T15:03:57-05:00 Rules can be broken but never ignored. I see a lot of people that are trying to copy a style without understanding how it's put together on a technical level. Complete consistency is key. If you are going to go sloppy go sloppy all the way, the end result will look as if that is what you meant to do. If you are going clean go clean all the way for the same reason, or if you are going to mix it up, have a good balance and reason. For Me I have found that Eyes hate corners, so I try to round the corners of my drawings to keep the eyes flowing happily, but there are times when I may want to have jagged edges to give an area impact. Also the eyes like to group things, just one of those odd ways the brain works. I can use that to my advantage as well by balancing areas of high detail with areas of lesser details. The brain goes "those belong together" and snaps them into place for me. At the end of the day the art is meant to be viewed by people, as an artist of any kind your goal should be to control that viewers experience. You don't want people to scratch there heads, you want them to have an "ah ha" moment, and trigger some sort of feeling or reaction. -Keep in mind I'm a fine art nerd so when I say "art" I am thinking of da vinci and shit, not the styles represented here exactly. A lot of the problems that todays artist face as far as making the stuff, have been solved by art history dudes. Using the size of a guys head as a measurement for where to place other parts of the body for example, 2pt and 3pt isometric and linear perspective, concave and convex, and so on. I would also recommend tracing stuff, Just don't go selling it and posting it on the inter webs ok. It's a good way to study how something is put together, but it's also stealing so use some good judgment. 96221 Post 2009-11-07T15:17:59-05:00 3156261 506 2009-11-07T15:18:53-05:00 that was a long breakfast. 1 & 2 kinda merge together... the word gets tossed around way too much, but i love "iconic" work. i think a great design in terms of bands is anything that can stand the tests of time and is still being sold a few years after it was originally produced. any shirt that cashes in on current trends usually last for a tour or two and fades away into obscurity or salvation army bins in a few months. all of the work below i view as some of the most recognizable merch pieces ever. for the most part, these are fairly simple designs that are printed as one color. you don't need extremely detailed oversized eight color prints to make a good t-shirt. <img src="http://dobi.nu/myphotos/iconictees.jpg" /> I was asked by a a t-shirt blog over a year ago what my favorite graphic t-shirts I own are and i responded with these... <a href="http://preshrunk.org/2008/08/whats-in-your-closet-rob-dobi.php">(link)</a> <img src="http://grab.by/kmw" /> If you asked me again today I'd probably say the same thing. they are all fairly simple and recognizable from across the room. they use only 1-2 colors but totally stand on their own amongst a see of t-shirts that try to use the "more is more" way of thinking. i think the most important aspect in designing tees is finding a good balance between substance / execution while reflecting the bands aesthetic without losing your own. line work isn't everything. gotta work on your type, color, composition, narrative, etc. 3. Mimmicking what is currently hot is the worst trend a young designer can follow. You can't fault them for this, it is usually all they know and the quickest way to get work. If a band can't afford ____ they go for diet ____. after all, he will always sell himself short and probably is only in this merch design business for the next year or so until he realizes he can't cut it, same with the bands he is designing stuff for. The bands who care about their image usually support the original artists who want to help create their image. 4. doesn't apply to me. 5. why bother starting small? the first paid gig i had was for thursday and from there it just branched out via word of mouth amongst their contemporaries. as an illustrator would you only send your portfolio to local newspapers or would you send it to wired and newsweek? what is the worst that could happen? hearing "no thanks"? 96221 Post 2009-11-07T22:16:21-05:00 3158941 14 2009-11-07T22:18:14-05:00 <blockquote><cite>dobi said:</cite> that was a long breakfast. 5. why bother starting small? the first paid gig i had was for thursday and from there it just branched out via word of mouth amongst their contemporaries. as an illustrator would you only send your portfolio to local newspapers or would you send it to wired and newsweek? what is the worst that could happen? hearing "no thanks"?</blockquote> I feel like this may have been a response to what I was saying earlier. I don't think there is any problem with shooting big right away, because like I said, the worst they can do is say no. I was merely pointing out that it just might start as something you did for friends or whatever. The first design I ever sold to someone was to Silverstein, so I also see your point in saying why start small? The faster you pick up bigger clients, the faster you'll get more of the same clients asking for work and/or accepting work you pitch. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T05:48:36-05:00 3161581 1541 2009-11-08T05:48:36-05:00 Listen to Dobi, my stuff was never intended for shirts, it's just what I got sucked into, and have been trying to make work. I'm a pen on paper guy and my work reflects that background. I hope that I know enough to make something that can work on any surface from a mug to a billboard, but that's a tall order. Designing for the context of what the image is going to be used for is a huge deal that I still struggle with. Dobi has that concept down I think better then anyone around here. I often look at "simple" work as missing something, but that's not a fair criticism, it's knowing when just enough is just enough that makes them work or fail. Great post. This is the kind of Emptees I like to see. I sometimes think of this place (yes I think its a real place on a map so what) is what Van Gogh was trying to make in his little studio by the whorehouse, a place for artist to hang out and just do what they do all day. Soak up life and paint crap. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T08:05:31-05:00 3162251 506 2009-11-08T08:08:15-05:00 i'm not saying simple is the only way, sorry if that got misconstrued. what i mean is some people sometimes push linework / colors way too far to the point where an illustration isn't even recognizable anymore. putting details where details don't need to be, sorta the equivalent of this... <img src="http://grab.by/lay" /> 96221 Post 2009-11-08T08:52:33-05:00 3162561 14 2009-11-08T08:52:33-05:00 That is one scary, what I would assume was once a dude. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T09:03:56-05:00 3162671 506 2009-11-08T09:05:42-05:00 <blockquote><cite>dobi said:</cite> i'm not saying simple is the only way, sorry if that got misconstrued. what i mean is some people sometimes push linework / colors way too far to the point where an illustration isn't even recognizable anymore. putting details where details don't need to be, sorta the equivalent of this... <img src="http://grab.by/lay" /></blockquote> That is bloody baffling how anyone could possibly think that looks good. Looks like a mutated cock. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T09:11:05-05:00 3162811 26051 2009-11-08T09:11:05-05:00 this is actually what i was thinking in terms of linework gone haywire... <img src="http://cache0.emptees.com/images/418781/blue.jpg" /> 96221 Post 2009-11-08T10:02:39-05:00 3163251 14 2009-11-08T10:02:39-05:00 the jane doe design is probably the most amazing thing ever. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T11:44:58-05:00 3163871 4557 2009-11-08T11:44:58-05:00 There is so much great advice in this thread i have no clue who to respond to first. This may take a while. 96221 Post 2009-11-08T13:05:09-05:00 3164781 65121 2009-11-08T13:05:09-05:00