Water Based vs Plastisol

hola!

went to see a screenprinter today

he’s much keener on using platisol, as most printers are it seems, as it’s easier to work with

trouble is you get that weight on the tee and the cardboard-y rubbery hand - not nice

is water based the way to go to avoid this?

i know discharge methods feel fantastic but i’m trying to go down a more eco conscious route - and it’s bad for the health of the printers too, right?

any other solutions for a nice hand, eco friendly finish?

1. 

   JoeBaronDesign said about 1 month ago

   waterbased is a the eco-friendly way, plus it has a softer feel than platisol. Waterbase just takes time to dry

2. 

   chalk said about 1 month ago

   it dries in the screens though? and you can’t print light colours on dark tees no?

3. 

   Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

   It depends on a lot of factors. plastisols are really the only way to get bright, vibrant colors on dark shirts without using discharge. if your going with white shirts, waterbased is fine, but with dark shirts, it’s much harder. There are plenty of things out there to eliminate the plastic, rubbery feel though. Higher screen meshes, dicharge and plasticharge, chino base, fashion soft base, etc. it all depends on the artwork, and material you are printing on, as well as the printer.

4. 

   Cole said about 1 month ago

   everything we print is plasticol. there are additives such as chino, reducer, soft hand... ect to thin ink and make it just as soft as waterbased inks.

   on dark shirts discharge/plastcharge has ZERO hand at all.

5. 

   Cole said about 1 month ago

   Derisory Designs said: It depends on a lot of factors. plastisols are really the only way to get bright, vibrant colors on dark shirts without using discharge. if your going with white shirts, waterbased is fine, but with dark shirts, it’s much harder. There are plenty of things out there to eliminate the plastic, rubbery feel though. Higher screen meshes, dicharge and plasticharge, chino base, fashion soft base, etc. it all depends on the artwork, and material you are printing on, as well as the printer.

   damn. well you said it!

6. 

   bandwagonmerch said about 1 month ago

   waterbased costs more generally and has pros and cons. Bleed through can be an issue and sometimes not look so good with artwork that needs to "pop" Plastisol has is advantages and its lower cost point but also its downs when it comes to thickness of ink. Some printers like ourselves have softening techniques that make it affordable and "waterbase like" on lighter garments.

7. 

   Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

   chalk said: it dries in the screens though? and you can’t print light colours on dark tees no?

   yes, waterbased inks dry in the screen easilly, especially with high mesh counts, that’s one of the reasons printers like using plastisols.

8. 

   Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

   Cole said:

   Derisory Designs said: It depends on a lot of factors. plastisols are really the only way to get bright, vibrant colors on dark shirts without using discharge. if your going with white shirts, waterbased is fine, but with dark shirts, it’s much harder. There are plenty of things out there to eliminate the plastic, rubbery feel though. Higher screen meshes, dicharge and plasticharge, chino base, fashion soft base, etc. it all depends on the artwork, and material you are printing on, as well as the printer.

   damn. well you said it!

   haha i was just thinking that! at least we both know our shit.

9. 

   chalk said about 1 month ago

   does plasticharge produce formaldehyde like other discharge methods?

   my printer wants children one day

10. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    there is no formaldehyde in the plastcharge we use. meaning we dont need to wash all the shirts before sending them out. meaning we like it a lot.

11. 

    djredbrownie said about 1 month ago

    I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

12. 

    chalk said about 1 month ago

    this looks interesting

    http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

13. 

    Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

    djredbrownie said: I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

    This may be true for discharge, but with plasticharge you have already mixed the ink with the discharging agent, so as long as the ink is laid down properly and it is heated to a consistent temperature, you don’t have much, if any, color variation.

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    yeah wilflex and union both have really good discharge products.

14. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    thats what we use

15. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    Derisory Designs said:

    djredbrownie said: I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

    This may be true for discharge, but with plasticharge you have already mixed the ink with the discharging agent, so as long as the ink is laid down properly and it is heated to a consistent temperature, you don’t have much, if any, color variation.

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    yeah wilflex and union both have really good discharge products.

    what emulsion do you use on your discharge screens?

16. 

    chalk said about 1 month ago

    Cole said:

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    thats what we use

    and it has a nice hand?

17. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    chalk said:

    Cole said:

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    thats what we use

    and it has a nice hand?

    after you wash it you cannot feel the ink at all.... because its not there. it bleaches the shirt and leaves behind the color of whatever plastisol you mixed it with.

18. 

    chalk said about 1 month ago

    thanks cole (and everyone else) - sounds like it might be the answer

19. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    you’re going to need special emulsion for discharge inks because it will eat right through normal emulsion.

20. 

    Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

    Cole said:

    Derisory Designs said:

    djredbrownie said: I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

    This may be true for discharge, but with plasticharge you have already mixed the ink with the discharging agent, so as long as the ink is laid down properly and it is heated to a consistent temperature, you don’t have much, if any, color variation.

    chalk said: this looks interesting http://www.insidescreenprinting.com/safe-soft-discharge-prints-without-the-rotten-eggs/

    yeah wilflex and union both have really good discharge products.

    what emulsion do you use on your discharge screens?

    I’ve started to use Ulano’s QLT. it’s new and it works really well. THe stencils are practically permanant until your ready to clear them off.

    Before that though I had a very hard time finding a good emulsion to use that wouldn’t break down after a while. Ulano’s qtx worked the best. I would love to try the Ulano qt-discharge but my local guy doesnt carry it and i never have the presence of mind to buy it in advance. What have you guys been using?

21. 

    roudystyle36 said about 1 month ago

    hey Cole what kind of emulsion do you use for your discharge inks?

22. 

    Jon Kruse said about 1 month ago

    Derisory Designs said:

    chalk said: it dries in the screens though? and you can’t print light colours on dark tees no?

    yes, waterbased inks dry in the screen easilly, especially with high mesh counts, that’s one of the reasons printers like using plastisols.

    Why do they always give you waterbased ink when you go to an art store? That’s what they give you for beginners but it’s a lot harder to print with. No one told me you had to flood the screen right after so the ink doesn’t dry in the screens.

23. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    we have both QTXpress and QL Discharge
    im not sure which one but i think its the QTX that i dont like. it barely ever provides a decent stencil and takes forever to blast out and usually is unusable.

24. 

    djredbrownie said about 1 month ago

    Jon Kruse said:

    Derisory Designs said:

    chalk said: it dries in the screens though? and you can’t print light colours on dark tees no?

    yes, waterbased inks dry in the screen easilly, especially with high mesh counts, that’s one of the reasons printers like using plastisols.

    Why do they always give you waterbased ink when you go to an art store? That’s what they give you for beginners but it’s a lot harder to print with. No one told me you had to flood the screen right after so the ink doesn’t dry in the screens.

    Be glad that you aren’t messing around with Plastisol inks, the clean up process is crazy dangerous. Fumes galore for sure.... I don’t know if you’ve used dehazer removing the ghosting left after removing the emulsion from your screens but that stuff is no joke and neither is the cleaner used to remove Plastisol inks from the screen.

25. 

    MadeByMAS said about 1 month ago

    water based also fades a lot faster

26. 

    collisiontheory said about 1 month ago

    MadeByMAS said: water based also fades a lot faster

    Interesting discussion. How long does it last before it fades?

27. 

    MadeByMAS said about 1 month ago

    I guess like anything else its in the quality of the print, but it is one of the main reasons we try and push plastisol more.
    I have some water based shirts that were given to me as samples to sell in the store and it faded a ton the first wash.

28. 

    collisiontheory said about 1 month ago

    MadeByMAS said: I guess like anything else its in the quality of the print, but it is one of the main reasons we try and push plastisol more. I have some water based shirts that were given to me as samples to sell in the store and it faded a ton the first wash.

    Hmm that’s interesting.. I’m in the process now of putting a little clothing business for babies with my wife and we were thinking of doing waterbased prints or sublimation prints. I guess we’ll have to think about that.

29. 

    heavyprints said about 1 month ago

    MadeByMAS said: I guess like anything else its in the quality of the print, but it is one of the main reasons we try and push plastisol more. I have some water based shirts that were given to me as samples to sell in the store and it faded a ton the first wash.

    Check out "FastColor" pretreatment from USScreen. Fixes that problem.

30. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    so which of the print methods discussed here would leave a soft hand but still produce a pretty bright color on a dark shirt? I dunno I think that was answered but I kinda got lost.

31. 

    heavyprints said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said: so which of the print methods discussed here would leave a soft hand but still produce a pretty bright color on a dark shirt? I dunno I think that was answered but I kinda got lost.

    Discharge, Plasticharge, any "charge". It removes the dye from the shirt and leaves an ink color.

    Any other method will require atleast a base coat of a thick ink to look bright on a dark shirt.

32. 

    MadeByMAS said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said: so which of the print methods discussed here would leave a soft hand but still produce a pretty bright color on a dark shirt? I dunno I think that was answered but I kinda got lost.

    you could do a discharge underlay and reduced plasitsol highlight colors, makes for a good bright print.

33. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    heavyprints said: Any other method will require atleast a base coat of a thick ink to look bright on a dark shirt.

    Even if the color is white?

34. 

    heavyprints said about 1 month ago

    You specified dark shirts?

    The underbase will be white, so that you can lay other colors on top of it. Sometimes there’s a second coat of white for the highlights also, because printing over the underbase can muddy the color a bit.

35. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    no I mean if the color of ink you’re shooting for is white since the underbase is white already.

36. 

    heavyprints said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said: no I mean if the color of ink you’re shooting for is white since the underbase is white already.

    The white ink is the thick ink. The other inks can be thick and opaque too, but generally the white ink is very thick and rubbery.

37. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    so using regular ink to make a white that’s bright on a dark shirt would be thick no matter what? I think that’s what I’m trying to ask.

38. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    on white shirts. its super simple to thin the PLASTISOL inks way down to the point you cant even feel them.

39. 

    heavyprints said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said: so using regular ink to make a white that’s bright on a dark shirt would be thick no matter what? I think that’s what I’m trying to ask.

    Any other method will require atleast a base coat of a thick ink to look bright on a dark shirt.

40. 

    Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

    djredbrownie said: I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

    Yo just checked out your site. Where in philly are you guys?

    collisiontheory said: Hmm that’s interesting.. I’m in the process now of putting a little clothing business for babies with my wife and we were thinking of doing waterbased prints or sublimation prints. I guess we’ll have to think about that.

    collision you should definitely do some research into plastisols, only because i know a lot of printers who print clothes for babies and toddlers use special inks that don’t produce any off gassing or odor that might be harmful to the baby. there is people on both sides of that arguement, many saying if the shirt is cured properly, there wont be any problem, but definitely something to think about.

    turoneatingpinoy said: so using regular ink to make a white that’s bright on a dark shirt would be thick no matter what? I think that’s what I’m trying to ask.

    turon, in order to get a bright white on a black shirt you really need to either do discharge (for a soft print) or P/F/P (print, flash dry, print) if you don’t care about the thickness. Some people even use two different whites. an underbase white that they will use with a low mesh screen then a highlight white with a higher mesh screen to brighten up the image.

    Cole said: we have both QTXpress and QL Discharge im not sure which one but i think its the QTX that i dont like. it barely ever provides a decent stencil and takes forever to blast out and usually is unusable.

    Hows the ql discharge?

    I know what you mean about the qtx. I went through about half a jar of the stuff the first time i used it trying to get one screen right. I had to completely readjust my burn times and make sure there was almost no humidity in my screen coating area. Once i got it to finally work it really held the stencils well but it was a huge pain in the ass to get used to.You might like the qlt.

    . . .and I’m spent.

41. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    I see that makes sense . . . so out of the charges which would be better to go with? Discharge or plasticharge(this thread is the first time I actually saw that explained)?

42. 

    Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

    That’s probably more your printers call than anything, most probably only do one or the other. It however, is probably cheaper to go with plastisol, since you only need to generate one screen since all the chemicals are mixed directly into the ink itself, whereas with discharge you need two screens, one to lay down the discharge and a second to lay down the exact same image in ink.

    To be fair though, while there is virtually no "hand" with plasticharge, you are still laying down plastisol ink, so by virture of that, there will be aslight feel to it that wouldn’t be there when using discharge and waterbased inks. however the difference is extremely small

43. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    Derisory Designs said:

    Cole said: we have both QTXpress and QL Discharge im not sure which one but i think its the QTX that i dont like. it barely ever provides a decent stencil and takes forever to blast out and usually is unusable.

    Hows the ql discharge?

    I know what you mean about the qtx. I went through about half a jar of the stuff the first time i used it trying to get one screen right. I had to completely readjust my burn times and make sure there was almost no humidity in my screen coating area. Once i got it to finally work it really held the stencils well but it was a huge pain in the ass to get used to.You might like the qlt.

    . . .and I’m spent.

    oh god im so glad im not the only one that hates the stuff.

    the standard discharge emulsion. QL i think... is the bomb compared to it.

    i just have to lower exposure time like 30-50 seconds usually. and it blasts out clean and easily.

44. 

    jimmyheartcore said about 1 month ago

    Oh god don’t get me started on that QTXpress shit.... ugh.

    Wasted so much time.

45. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    djredbrownie said: They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk.

    That’s the part that’s making me unsure about discharge. Because even though the design I’m looking to get printed is just white ink on a black shirt. I still kinda want to carry on the idea of bright and colorfulness most of my designs have.

46. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    jimmyheartcore said: Oh god don’t get me started on that QTXpress shit.... ugh. Wasted so much time.

    at least it was free, right?

47. 

    Chris Martin said about 1 month ago

    Have you guys tried the graphic HU from suncoast? Do you like it?

48. 

    Derisory Designs said about 1 month ago

    Chris Martin said: Have you guys tried the graphic HU from suncoast? Do you like it?

    Can’t say that I have. I was looking at Suncoast’s page to look for information about it but cant find anything. Got a link?

49. 

    djredbrownie said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said:

    djredbrownie said: They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk.

    That’s the part that’s making me unsure about discharge. Because even though the design I’m looking to get printed is just white ink on a black shirt. I still kinda want to carry on the idea of bright and colorfulness most of my designs have.

    Well, are you trying to be socially conscious or trying to make a buck? Plastisol is the cheapest way and most accurate way of getting the end result you want. The other processes will most likely get you a great end result but it might be off a bit and they will be more expensive. The last shirts that we printed we used plastisol light inks on dark shirts and it came out great. The inks weren’t mad thick and uncomfortable. I guess it depends on your printer and their knowhow. If they can get a consistent, bright coat with the least amount of coats then you’ll be fine. I remember our first shirt order, what a nightmare. The white was soo thick it was hard to get a decent coat, the shit looked like we were using puff ink. We couldn’t cure the shit properly. Had to do it a few times cause the ink was washing off. NOT FUN!!!! Let alone the fumes from everything... we were high as hell!

    Derisory Designs said:

    djredbrownie said: I’ve printed light water based inks on dark shirts and it worked fine, yes the shirt color bleeds through, but it does work. Plastisol inks are brighter and most printers use them for their dependability. I just had a job that I knew I’d have a problem printing on my equipment so I outsourced it. They tried to use discharge but the problem with that is that the lighter inks with darker shirts is that the color can change. They print a gel like bleach that removes the color from the shirt and then print the actual color on top of it. The gel is not removed and when the ink goes on top of it, it can and did alter the color a whole lot. I guess if color correctness doesn’t matter then go discharge, but for me doing corporate branding stuff, it’s not worth the risk. Water based inks are also great but it’s a different look and end result.

    Yo just checked out your site. Where in philly are you guys?

    I’m in NE Philly for now... but I do business off of City Line as well. Where are you located? Throw me an email, I’d like to talk about some stuff with you. jared@stateaesthetic.com

50. 

    brett_district said about 1 month ago

    just want to point out though to the original poster that if they are looking for more environmentally sound printing, the plasticharge might not use formaldehyde, but it does still rely on pvc based plastisol. I happen to think that plastisol in small quantities is not a bad option because there is so little waste and it lasts so long, but a lot of my 'green' customers are dead set against it just because it is basically still plastic.

51. 

    Cole said about 1 month ago

    Chris Martin said: Have you guys tried the graphic HU from suncoast? Do you like it?

    is that the purple stuff? if so i love it. its the best emulsion i have ever used. perfect stencil everytime. everytime.

52. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    djredbrownie said: Well, are you trying to be socially conscious or trying to make a buck?

    I’m trying to figure out which method would produce the best quality and but still fit in our budget.

53. 

    "Crazy" Mike said about 1 month ago

    Cole said: everything we print is plasticol. there are additives such as chino, reducer, soft hand... ect to thin ink and make it just as soft as waterbased inks.

    So the hand is still pretty good on the regular screen prints you guys do?

54. 

    Chris Martin said about 1 month ago

    turoneatingpinoy said:

    Cole said: everything we print is plasticol. there are additives such as chino, reducer, soft hand... ect to thin ink and make it just as soft as waterbased inks.

    So the hand is still pretty good on the regular screen prints you guys do?

    Most of the more advanced printers on here (merchspin, printmytees, bandwagon, etc.) Use techniques that keep the normal screen printed plastisol at a softer hand than people are used to.

    We use 1 pass of a cool gray under base for all of our prints with chinoed out or reduced colors laid on top and then a white highlight layer, so our prints that are large and on dark garments come out amazingly soft.

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