First an observation about the psychology of Emptees locals The business serious chats and the playful tomfoolery chat get's mixed up and I think that is what causes a lot of drama around here. I like to have legitimate business opportunities come here, because it beats me having to go out and look for them myself. (Shirtfight for example) But this is not and never will be one of those bid for artist sites I hate so much. I think it's a degrading way to hire an artist, to throw a job under the table and let us fight it out like dogs. People coming here for business need to understand that this is not an artist for hire site. It's a community for people that just happen to be into the same stuff. It's a place to hang out after a hard day starring at pixels. You (business people) are talking shop off the clock and often times we are not in the mood to deal with any art related bullshit durning our play time. Also We (the community) should NOT be treating people that are trying to give us money like shit all the time even if it is a shity offer. Maybe the business people don't know it's a shity offer because this is how a lot of transactions between business people and artist go down. It's normal from their perspective, and don't think they are doing anything wrong. Or they are legitimately ignorant and need to be educated on how we roll. Or perhaps they are indeed fucktards. In all cases they should be either ignored or told what's up. For the business people. It's our choice wether or not we want to participate in these often shity offers. Our reluctance to be professional about it has to do with either it's a shity offer to begin with, or maybe we would rather chill out and forget about deadlines and mortgages and not talk shop with some random douche that thinks he has the next best thing in tee shirts since the wet tee shirt contest. Experience has taught many of us to see red flags and run away or fight about it. Do this art for money thing long enough and everyone gets screwed to some degree or another at some point sooner or later. The Proper way to Hire an Artist. -Get an idea of what your customer wants. -Research portfolios/ -Contact Artist That matched that style. -Email them all the information they need. -Agree on terms and begin -Keep communication open until project is completed. -Pay what for the artwork according the agreed upon terms. The proper way to hire an artist is to first know what you want in detail. Have your facts and figures ready for your first email. In your brief describe what you want the design to include visually. (this will help you search by look or style rather then the general term "designer") Artist are visual people and not everyone of us can do every style under the sun. You are going to need a specialist if you want the best results, this is not a job for a multi tool you will be needing a precision instrument. With that in mind look for things that you already like. Other useful information Number of colors This will effect your cost as well as how the artwork is created, It is better to know this from the start rather the later on as it is hard to change later on. Not all printers can handle large numbers of screens 4-8 is recommended. This is entirely up to the you the client. You should always base judgments on what you think your customer will really go for. You will have to be selling these remember you don't want to make that job any harder by skimping on what will make for a really great product. Budget, (expect to pay between $150 and up) The price is determined by the artist in your first email, pay what they ask not what you think they are worth. This is where things always get sour. In an artist for hire situation, The artist is the service provider therefore they determine the price not the client. This is a respect issue, many of us have spent a life time, or a ton of money going to university or both to get good at the skills we have and let's face it not everyone can draw that well. It is the difference between a really great product and a cheap knock off. You should want to provide for your customers the very best or why even bother making anything at all. To be blunt It's an ugly enough world already without adding any more to it feel me. Like wise an artist should provide the very best for their client, it makes no sense to do a poor job with your name all over it if you ever hope to have a successful career making money for drawing stuff. If you don't think you can do a good job then don't take the job. It will save you and the client a lot of headaches. The artist payment may or may not be negotiable it's up to you (the client) and them (the artist) what you want the terms of payment to be.) Agree on this before anything else. These should be made in closed door emails between clients and artist directly. Do not move forward until you are clear on all your terms. Do not post a general open call. You will get people that may or may not be what you are looking for. Remember you need a specialist not a multi tool, take some time to find someone you like and send them an available for hire type email) You should know what your customer wants more then anyone else. Use that to guide you. It is ok to give examples of what you are looking for in a brief. It is NEVER ok for you to ask one of use to copy another persons work. Example: If You want the cover of Alice and Wonderland on a shirt. You are out of luck. Come up with something better or god forbid you talk to your designer and listen to there ideas. I would like to see a separation between the serious business post and well everything else. Have some clear do's and Don't for people looking to hire an artist. and have a Jobs column on the front page for people looking for work as well as a separate section on the top. I think keeping the business people and the off the clock fun time people separate is a good idea. I can wear a suit and tie and be polite and use proper grammar when I need to. Some times I just like to drink beer and make fart noises. Please feel free to add to this or make any corrections necessary. Artist and Clients lets all hug it out ok. Peace. 2009-09-09T17:49:46-04:00 57 2009-08-28T15:25:29-04:00 true 0 70831 false false 2329 506 1 2009-11-21T08:57:13-05:00 1137 I read none of this, its super long. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:26:42-04:00 2217491 2329 2009-08-28T15:26:42-04:00 <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> I just read my name and made sure it wasn't slanderous. edit: Ok I skimmed it, and agree with the general idea of the post! 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:27:49-04:00 2217511 11937 2009-08-28T15:28:42-04:00 <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:31:01-04:00 2217551 1815 2009-08-28T15:31:01-04:00 To clients as well as designers: If you're not interested in the offer, mail back and say you're not interested in the offer. It's polite to do so. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:33:29-04:00 2217591 7859 2009-08-28T15:33:29-04:00 <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> way to be a douche. now. great post QN. i fully agree with everything you said. especially the need for artists and clients to hug it out. as an artist AND a client of the merch world, i think rules like this need to be stated and people need to know what's up and acceptable. nice work man. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:36:18-04:00 2217651 9035 2009-08-28T15:36:18-04:00 Locals hate when business people ask for work when we are trying to chill out and forget about morgages or tired of staring at pixels and just want to have fun and it pisses people off. Also business people may be adding fuel to the fire by being ignorant. Its not their fault they are new and don't no how we roll here. I am tired of people treating folks trying to give us money like shit all the time. I am also tired of people asking for shit all the time. There is a right way and a wrong way to hire us. The wrong way will get you yelled at the proper way will get you praise and great products to sell. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:36:41-04:00 2217681 506 2009-08-28T15:51:31-04:00 I read it all, and people looking to hire designers probably should too. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:37:03-04:00 2217691 7093 2009-08-28T15:37:03-04:00 I'm not the best draftsman, so If anyone would like to take this idea and make it in to a proper resource it would really help. The do's and don'ts of hiring. The town hall got me thinking Emptees already has all the tools it needs to be good. No need for any fees and what have you, just take some time to make some useful content that we can all point to later when we need it. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:41:15-04:00 2217731 506 2009-08-28T15:41:15-04:00 Quaker this a great post. The only "problem" I frequently encounter with clients is their overall professionalism. When you get an e-mail saying, "hey, do u leik make layouts nd stuff?", it's sometimes difficult to even justify that with a response. I fully agree with an open dialogue with the people bringing money your way, but they need to have art direction and have their research done before they come looking to hire anybody. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:41:32-04:00 2217741 12825 2009-08-28T15:41:47-04:00 <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> I tried to sum it up: -Get an idea of what your customer wants. -Research portfolios -Contact Artist That matched that style. -Email them all the information they need. -Agree on terms and begin -Keep communication open until project is completed. -Pay what for the artwork according the agreed upon terms. Consider: -Budget (expect to pay between $150 and up (can be negotiable) -Not all printers can handle large numbers of screens (keep your colors low. Max:4-8) -Many artists have spent alot of their time,effort, and money into building their skills. -Never ask an artist to copy another artists work. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:43:37-04:00 2217781 23301 2009-08-28T15:45:13-04:00 Great post QN. <blockquote><cite>gumbolimbo said:</cite> To clients as well as designers: If you're not interested in the offer, mail back and say you're not interested in the offer. It's polite to do so.</blockquote> This. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:49:54-04:00 2217861 24821 2009-08-28T15:49:54-04:00 <blockquote><cite>minorhero said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> way to be a douche. </blockquote> He was joking. I´m not I had to print it out to stop my eyes hurting. Everything Newman say is Gospel so I vouch for whatever he wrote. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:53:43-04:00 2217961 2879 2009-08-28T15:53:43-04:00 Communication skills can not be stressed enough get your act together before even considering hiring someone. Also be honest with a client if you are not the dude for the job no shame in turning down an offer or even better recommending a colleague that may be what the client needs. We are both on the same team. We want to make a great product and be compensated for our efforts. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T15:55:50-04:00 2218041 506 2009-08-28T15:56:42-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite>Also be honest with a client if you are not the dude for the job no shame in turning down an offer or even better recommending a colleague that may be what the client needs.</blockquote> Yes, I think it would help out a lot if everyone carried that mentality. I've had a few requests for t-shirt designs that were far beyond my abilities as an illustrator and I've recommended other artists (whether or not they used/followed through with my recommendations...I can't be certain) and I'm sure in the end they will find they got a better product than what I could have offered them for that particular service. Also, it saves me the headache of a million revisions because I wasn't the right guy for the job in the first place. I'm a web design guy...most of you are awesome at what you do...no shame in passing along a client to other peoples area of strength. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T16:01:01-04:00 2218181 12825 2009-08-28T16:01:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>RustyEight said:</cite> I read none of this, its super long.</blockquote> lmao. good points in this though. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T16:33:34-04:00 2218681 10287 2009-08-28T16:33:34-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> Communication skills can not be stressed enough get your act together before even considering hiring someone. Also be honest with a client if you are not the dude for the job no shame in turning down an offer or even better recommending a colleague that may be what the client needs. We are both on the same team. We want to make a great product and be compensated for our efforts.</blockquote> haha communication yes. some artists love it when you attempt to talk in their language. it allows them to smile upon your efforts to interact with them. they usually tell me to just talk in english though lol 70831 Post 2009-08-28T16:37:28-04:00 2218721 10287 2009-08-28T16:37:28-04:00 Newman for class president:)! backed! 70831 Post 2009-08-28T17:14:25-04:00 2219251 3643 2009-08-28T17:14:25-04:00 quaker, you're fucking amazing 70831 Post 2009-08-28T17:38:41-04:00 2219801 9857 2009-08-28T17:38:41-04:00 I can't take any credit, it's all stuff I picked up here and there. from other people I just made it unreadably long. But thank you. 70831 Post 2009-08-28T17:41:26-04:00 2219811 506 2009-08-28T17:41:26-04:00 "our play time" made me think of small pups rolling around 70831 Post 2009-08-28T17:43:54-04:00 2219871 40501 2009-08-28T17:43:54-04:00 <a href="http://www.theaoi.com/Mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=415&Itemid=65">Illustrators as professionals. WTF.</a> 70831 Post 2009-08-31T12:54:24-04:00 2258421 506 2009-08-31T12:54:24-04:00 ^ ??? 70831 Post 2009-09-02T15:04:01-04:00 2289561 7859 2009-09-02T15:04:01-04:00 Being a “business” guy and an artist, yes there are few of us out there, a couple things stood out to me. $150 and up. Guys, don’t sell yourselves short. I would hope the emptees community average is a bit higher than that. Maybe not. From my experience if you are selling designs that you put a lot of time into, selling them for $150 or anything under $250, then you are doing them a favor. And if its some small time douche company you don’t care about and just met don’t take an offer you are not happy with. Both you the artist and the company should be happy with everything involved, price, communication, and final product. When I commission pieces or when I’m working with a company I always base my price on time involved, and usually if more time is put in than originally thought its ok to bump that price up to compensate. Be honest with them and look to work with companies that will do the same for you. Because I can foresee the replies to this post asking... I pay $350 - 500 average for a piece of tshirt art. $200-$250 for quickie stuff, i always leave the final price up to the artist as long as he knows my range. Emptees Forum Cattle Call vs. Portfolio Browsing to find artists to commission. So I’ve tried both ways. Sad to say though, I had a lot better results with the cattle call method. The only reason being is that with the cattle call, you get only people who are hungry to work. You end up wading through portfolios that aren’t right for you but as long as you know what you want, it can work. I tried the other way one season, only contacting artists I like and want to work with, widdled it down to around 7 artists or who all agreed to do work, but I think out of those 7 only 3 or so came through for me. Some of those were some high profile names too. The usual excuse was being too busy but some just disappeared. So that’s why I do like shouting off of the rooftop and saying I’ll look at anyone’s portfolio who is interested in showing it to me. I know what I’m looking for and I’ve gotten good at spotting it and I have no problem getting back to everyone and telling them if they are right for the gig or not. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T19:35:08-04:00 2292061 13240 2009-09-02T19:35:08-04:00 <blockquote><cite>TrevorPatterson said:</cite> Being a “business” guy and an artist, yes there are few of us out there, a couple things stood out to me. $150 and up. Guys, don’t sell yourselves short. I would hope the emptees community average is a bit higher than that. Maybe not. From my experience if you are selling designs that you put a lot of time into, selling them for $150 or anything under $250, then you are doing them a favor. And if its some small time douche company you don’t care about and just met don’t take an offer you are not happy with. Both you the artist and the company should be happy with everything involved, price, communication, and final product. When I commission pieces or when I’m working with a company I always base my price on time involved, and usually if more time is put in than originally thought its ok to bump that price up to compensate. Be honest with them and look to work with companies that will do the same for you. Because I can foresee the replies to this post asking... I pay $350 - 500 average for a piece of tshirt art. $200-$250 for quickie stuff, i always leave the final price up to the artist as long as he knows my range. Emptees Forum Cattle Call vs. Portfolio Browsing to find artists to commission. So I’ve tried both ways. Sad to say though, I had a lot better results with the cattle call method. The only reason being is that with the cattle call, you get only people who are hungry to work. You end up wading through portfolios that aren’t right for you but as long as you know what you want, it can work. I tried the other way one season, only contacting artists I like and want to work with, widdled it down to around 7 artists or who all agreed to do work, but I think out of those 7 only 3 or so came through for me. Some of those were some high profile names too. The usual excuse was being too busy but some just disappeared. So that’s why I do like shouting off of the rooftop and saying I’ll look at anyone’s portfolio who is interested in showing it to me. I know what I’m looking for and I’ve gotten good at spotting it and I have no problem getting back to everyone and telling them if they are right for the gig or not.</blockquote> Band tees pay far less than anything else I've ever done, design wise. Before coming here, I couldn't imagine doing a design for less than $450-$500 (and have lots of friends that don't dip below $600, too). I think a lot of VERY small companies and VERY tightly budgeted bands frequent the site. I fear that, if this is a person's first introduction to the world of illustration, they're coming off with the impression that they need to cater to the lowest common denominator. I've gotten in trouble for saying it before, but the level of discourse from clients received by my postings here tend to be along the lines of those trolled off Craig's List. Generally, they're pretty bad. There are lots of glaring exceptions that prove the rule, obviously, and I've had the pleasure of working with them. TRUE FACT: According to The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - 12th Edition, pg. 185, Fig. 9-11, we should be charging $1000-$2500 for a tee design. And that’s not even full rights. That’s the fee for first production rights only. An additional 100-150% should be added for full rights. Think that over the next time you feel like your work isn’t worth more than a couple hundred dollars. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T19:42:28-04:00 2292111 5738 2009-09-02T19:50:05-04:00 <blockquote>I've gotten in trouble for saying it before, but the level of discourse from clients received by my postings here tend to be along the lines of those trolled off Craig's List. </blockquote> Yeah, I hate it when a client who I think wants some Tshirt art turns out to be a chick who just is trying to get me to pay to watch her on her webcam. Happens all the time. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T19:52:58-04:00 2292171 13240 2009-09-02T19:52:58-04:00 <blockquote><cite>TrevorPatterson said:</cite> <blockquote>I've gotten in trouble for saying it before, but the level of discourse from clients received by my postings here tend to be along the lines of those trolled off Craig's List. </blockquote> Yeah, I hate it when a client who I think wants some Tshirt art turns out to be a chick who just is trying to get me to pay to watch her on her webcam. Happens all the time.</blockquote> lol I meant, specifically, the illiterate/insulting spec offers and such - the same "cattle call" threads you decry, basically. "look for artsist to make tee 4 my band, must be hip and fresh, retro 80s, totally new, no pay unless we liek the art" 70831 Post 2009-09-02T19:59:04-04:00 2292241 5738 2009-09-02T20:05:25-04:00 I agree especially with the stuff about bashing clients, even when the work is for peanuts, luckily, people do work for peanuts, so if the job isn't for you, no need to bash the client. For people/clients like the above ray quote should be educated, so maybe they can make the correct steps next time when they try to commission an artist. Good post you oatmeal ninja you. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T20:19:29-04:00 2292431 5341 2009-09-02T20:28:41-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> TRUE FACT: According to The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - 12th Edition, pg. 185, Fig. 9-11, we should be charging $1000-$2500 for a tee design. And that’s not even full rights. That’s the fee for first production rights only. An additional 100-150% should be added for full rights. Think that over the next time you feel like your work isn’t worth more than a couple hundred dollars.</blockquote> i laughed my ass off after reading this one.. and i forwarded it to my friends, and they also laughed.. we laughed in irony, man... i'm from Indonesia, and do u know how much one design for the local clothings costs here? $10 HOW BOUT THAT?! $10 is the average of all fees, but there are also many designers here that got paid only for $2,5!! can u imagine how's their feeling after reading that "TRUE FACT" hahahahahahhahahahahhahaha *again laughing in irony and pain* 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:22:46-04:00 2294371 12014 2009-09-02T23:22:46-04:00 quaker, thanks :D i enjoyed this 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:39:59-04:00 2294441 5504 2009-09-02T23:39:59-04:00 This is great Newman. If you can edit the paragraphs and create bold headers like "BUDGET", "BRIEFS", etc. it would be an easier read. Good to put on the resources section too. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:40:39-04:00 2294451 1259 2009-09-02T23:40:39-04:00 I don't mean to make nasty words, but I don't see the irony. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:42:27-04:00 2294491 46731 2009-09-02T23:42:27-04:00 <blockquote><cite>markusmanson said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> TRUE FACT: According to The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - 12th Edition, pg. 185, Fig. 9-11, we should be charging $1000-$2500 for a tee design. And that’s not even full rights. That’s the fee for first production rights only. An additional 100-150% should be added for full rights. Think that over the next time you feel like your work isn’t worth more than a couple hundred dollars.</blockquote> i laughed my ass off after reading this one.. and i forwarded it to my friends, and they also laughed.. we laughed in irony, man... i'm from Indonesia, and do u know how much one design for the local clothings costs here? $10 HOW BOUT THAT?! $10 is the average of all fees, but there are also many designers here that got paid only for $2,5!! can u imagine how's their feeling after reading that "TRUE FACT" hahahahahahhahahahahhahaha *again laughing in irony and pain*</blockquote> Your cost of living is different from our own. Clothes - FlipFlops ('Bata' or non-branded) Rp20,000.00 $1.64 € 1.29 Clothes - T-Shirt (non-branded) Rp30,000.00 $2.45 € 1.94 Clothes - Sports Shoes (non-branded) Rp60,000.00 $4.91 € 3.88 Clothes - Pair of Jeans (non-branded) Rp70,000.00 $5.72 € 4.53 Drinks - Alcohol, Bottle Bintang Beer (0.3 litre) Rp8,000.00 $0.65 € 0.52 Drinks - Alcohol, Bottle Bintang Beer (0.6 litre) Rp15,000.00 $1.23 € 0.97 Drinks - Alcohol, Local Arak (1 litre) Rp50,000.00 $4.09 € 3.23 Drinks - Alcohol, Local Wine (0.7 litre) Rp80,000.00 $6.54 € 5.17 Drinks - Alcohol, Imported Wine (0.7 litre), starting at Rp150,000.00 $12.26 € 9.70 Drinks - Alcohol, Imported, Whiskey/Vodka (0.7 litre), from Rp180,000.00 $14.72 € 11.64 Drinks - Clubbing, Bottle Bintang Beer (0.3 litre) Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Drinks - Clubbing, Local Cocktail Rp50,000.00 $4.09 € 3.23 Drinks - Clubbing, International Cocktail Rp75,000.00 $6.13 € 4.85 Drinks - Cup of Bali Kopi Rp3,000.00 $0.25 € 0.19 Drinks - Drinking Water Aqua/Danone (1.5 litre bottle) Rp3,000.00 $0.25 € 0.19 Drinks - non-carbonated (i.e Green Tea, 0.5 litre) Rp3,500.00 $0.29 € 0.23 Drinks - Isotonic Sports Drink (0.5 bottle, non-branded) Rp4,000.00 $0.33 € 0.26 Drinks - Isotonic Sports Drink (0.3 can) Rp4,500.00 $0.37 € 0.29 Drinks - Drinking Water Aqua/Danone (19 litre gallon) Rp9,000.00 $0.74 € 0.58 Drinks - Soft Drink (Pepsi/Coke, 1.5 litre) Rp9,500.00 $0.78 € 0.61 Drinks - Milk Tetra Pack (1 litre) Rp11,000.00 $0.90 € 0.71 Drinks - Juices (Orange/Apple, 1 litre) Rp13,000.00 $1.06 € 0.84 Food - Egg (1 piece) Rp500.00 $0.04 € 0.03 Food - Local Dessert (Ice Campur/Ice Teler) Rp4,000.00 $0.33 € 0.26 Food - Local Mie Ayam (Noodle Soup with Chicken) Rp4,000.00 $0.33 € 0.26 Food - Local Nasi/Mie Goreng Rp5,000.00 $0.41 € 0.32 Food - 15 sticks of Chicken Sate at local market Rp6,000.00 $0.49 € 0.39 Food - Fruit, Salak (1 kg) Rp6,000.00 $0.49 € 0.39 Food - Fruit, Rambutan (1 kg) Rp7,000.00 $0.57 € 0.45 Food - White Rice (1 kg) Rp8,000.00 $0.65 € 0.52 Food - Ayam Bakar with Rice and raw veggies Rp8,000.00 $0.65 € 0.52 Food - Fruit, Mandarine Orange (1 kg) Rp10,000.00 $0.82 € 0.65 Food - Local Warung Meal (includes Tofu, Egg, Tempe, Rice, Noodles, Chicken, Fish - fried/cooked) Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Food - Fruit, Orange (1 kg) Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Food - Fruit, NZ Apples (1 kg) Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Food - Western, McDonalds Ice Cream Rp2,500.00 $0.20 € 0.16 Food - Western, Baguette (foot long) Rp6,000.00 $0.49 € 0.39 Food - Western, McDonalds Cheeseburger Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Food - Western, McDonalds Big Mac Rp15,000.00 $1.23 € 0.97 Food - Western, Cold Cut (European Standard per 100g) Rp20,000.00 $1.64 € 1.29 Food - Western, Pizza medium (Pizza Hut) Rp50,000.00 $4.09 € 3.23 Food - Western, Italian or other European Cuisine (dish) Rp70,000.00 $5.72 € 4.53 Food - Western, Pizza large (Pizza Hut) Rp90,000.00 $7.36 € 5.82 Housing - Electricity, 1 Room (monthly) Rp50,000.00 $4.09 € 3.23 Housing - Electricity, House/Studio with Aircon (monthly) Rp150,000.00 $12.26 € 9.70 Housing - Electricity, House 2 bedroom (monthly) Rp350,000.00 $28.62 € 22.63 Housing - Garbage Removal (monthly) Rp20,000.00 $1.64 € 1.29 Housing - Rent, 1 Room (per night) Rp50,000.00 $4.09 € 3.23 Housing - Rent, 1 Room (monthly/KosKosan app.160sqft) Rp600,000.00 $49.05 € 38.80 Housing - Rent, House/Studio (monthly/app.800 sqft) Rp2,000,000.00 $163.52 € 129.32 Housing - Rent, House/2-bedroom (monthly/1.500 sqft) Rp3,000,000.00 $245.27 € 193.99 Transport - Gasoline/Petrol (1 litre) Rp6,000.00 $0.49 € 0.39 Transport - Bike Rental Honda/Yamaha 100cc (per day) Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Transport - Taxi (short distance) Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Transport - Taxi (app. 5 km) Rp30,000.00 $2.45 € 1.94 Transport - Car Rental Daihatsu Feroza, 4-5 ppl (per day) Rp80,000.00 $6.54 € 5.17 Transport - Car Rental Daihatsu Taruna, 6-7 ppl (per day) Rp120,000.00 $9.81 € 7.76 Wellness - Haircut (Men) Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Wellness - Head Massage/Cream Bath (1 hour) Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Wellness - Manicure Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Wellness - Pedicure Rp35,000.00 $2.86 € 2.26 Wellness - Traditional Massage (1 hour) Rp40,000.00 $3.27 € 2.59 Wellness - Haircut (Women) Rp35,000.00 $2.86 € 2.26 Wellness - Hair Coloring Rp150,000.00 $12.26 € 9.70 Wellness - Hair Extensions (20 piece, 35cm) Rp700,000.00 $57.23 € 45.26 Wellness - Toiletries, Soap (non-branded, Nuovo etc.) Rp1,400.00 $0.11 € 0.09 Wellness - Toiletries, Soap (branded, Dove etc.) Rp6,000.00 $0.49 € 0.39 Wellness - Toiletries, Tootbrush (non-branded) Rp2,500.00 $0.20 € 0.16 Wellness - Toiletries, Tootbrush (branded) Rp12,000.00 $0.98 € 0.78 Wellness - Toiletries, Tootpaste (non-branded, Ciptadent) Rp3,000.00 $0.25 € 0.19 Wellness - Toiletries, Tootbrush (Sensodyne etc.) Rp25,000.00 $2.04 € 1.62 Wellness - Waxing Lip/Chin/Eyebrows Rp30,000.00 $2.45 € 1.94 Wellness - Waxing Upper/Lower Leg Rp60,000.00 $4.91 € 3.88 Wellness - Waxing Bikini Line Rp60,000.00 $4.91 € 3.88 Wellness - Waxing Brazilian Rp70,000.00 $5.72 € 4.53 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:42:53-04:00 2294501 5738 2009-09-02T23:49:18-04:00 Man, this place is a total bummer sometimes. I give up. 70831 Post 2009-09-02T23:43:40-04:00 2294511 5738 2009-09-02T23:46:09-04:00 I have noticed just like there are amateur "designers" on the doodle side of things. There seems to be a growing number of amateur clients. People buying art for the first time that have no clue about usage, or limited rights. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T00:17:58-04:00 2294961 506 2009-09-03T00:30:42-04:00 @Frenden: what the??? MAN! u totally made my mouth open wide! i can't believe u could have somethin' like that... truely, man.. you are my GOD! hahahhaha okay2, sorry for my whining and maybe i sounded childish before.. but it's just my self opinion.. hope that didn't piss anybody here.. :) 70831 Post 2009-09-03T00:34:56-04:00 2295191 12014 2009-09-03T00:34:56-04:00 <blockquote><cite>markusmanson said:</cite> @Frenden: what the??? MAN! u totally made my mouth open wide! i can't believe u could have somethin' like that... truely, man.. you are my GOD! hahahhaha okay2, sorry for my whining and maybe i sounded childish before.. but it's just my self opinion.. hope that didn't piss anybody here.. :)</blockquote> I think you are misunderstanding my original point. Language barrier, maybe. I don't know. I looked into the cost of living for your country and it is very different from my own. It would be impossible to live here on the rates that are acceptable for your cost of living. That's all. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T00:38:31-04:00 2295321 5738 2009-09-03T00:45:59-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> I have noticed just like there are amateur "designers" on the doodle side of things. There seems to be a growing number of amateur clients. People buying art for the first time that have no clue about usage, or limited rights.</blockquote> well even random kids that were in my classes in high school would say I should get at least $300 for my stuff. seriously, why is it always the ignorant ones who start the "clothing companies". nobody should think $150 is expensive for a tee design 70831 Post 2009-09-03T00:42:36-04:00 2295361 7945 2009-09-03T00:42:36-04:00 To play devils advocate Ray: If you think the The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guideline says you should charge almost 2k, why would you sub to a spec/contest and be happy with only $500? Not bashing at all, just like seeing all sides. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:00:31-04:00 2295621 5341 2009-09-03T01:00:31-04:00 emptees: home of drama threads 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:03:35-04:00 2295711 29171 2009-09-03T01:03:35-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Integral said:</cite> To play devils advocate Ray: If you think the The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guideline says you should charge almost 2k, why would you sub to a spec/contest and be happy with only $500? Not bashing at all, just like seeing all sides.</blockquote> I've never done spec. I sub to contests with designs I have lying around. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:05:59-04:00 2295781 5738 2009-09-03T01:05:59-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Riff said:</cite> emptees: home of drama threads</blockquote> The discourse has been civil. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:06:25-04:00 2295791 5738 2009-09-03T01:06:54-04:00 <blockquote><cite>markusmanson said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> TRUE FACT: According to The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - 12th Edition, pg. 185, Fig. 9-11, we should be charging $1000-$2500 for a tee design. And that’s not even full rights. That’s the fee for first production rights only. An additional 100-150% should be added for full rights. Think that over the next time you feel like your work isn’t worth more than a couple hundred dollars.</blockquote> i laughed my ass off after reading this one.. and i forwarded it to my friends, and they also laughed.. we laughed in irony, man... i'm from Indonesia, and do u know how much one design for the local clothings costs here? $10 HOW BOUT THAT?! $10 is the average of all fees, but there are also many designers here that got paid only for $2,5!! can u imagine how's their feeling after reading that "TRUE FACT" hahahahahahhahahahahhahaha *again laughing in irony and pain*</blockquote> Come on! Living in a country with a ridiculous exchange rate is not an excuse to charge low and ultimately destroy the industry. I'm from the Philippines, but I never let the exchange rate overwhelm me. I know what my art is worth. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:06:55-04:00 2295801 24821 2009-09-03T01:06:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Integral said:</cite> To play devils advocate Ray: If you think the The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guideline says you should charge almost 2k, why would you sub to a spec/contest and be happy with only $500? Not bashing at all, just like seeing all sides.</blockquote> I've never done spec. I sub to contests with designs I have lying around.</blockquote> Contests then... Is it because the design wasn't made for anyone that you can sell it for cheaper then the Guild would recommend? 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:07:30-04:00 2295811 5341 2009-09-03T01:08:58-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Integral said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Integral said:</cite> To play devils advocate Ray: If you think the The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guideline says you should charge almost 2k, why would you sub to a spec/contest and be happy with only $500? Not bashing at all, just like seeing all sides.</blockquote> I've never done spec. I sub to contests with designs I have lying around.</blockquote> Contests then...is there any diff?</blockquote> Depends on the rules of the contest. If there is a specific theme that limits my ability to use the work elsewhere, yes. See: band specific contests versus open, very loosely themed contests. IE, KISS vs. "faces." Also, the rights retained by the artist as stipulated by the terms and conditions of the contest are really important. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:09:08-04:00 2295841 5738 2009-09-03T01:09:08-04:00 Ok I remember you saying that before, it be hard to sub a KISS design to TDWP later if you didnt win said contest. Thanks for the clarification, appreciate the quick response too! 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:11:30-04:00 2295891 5341 2009-09-03T01:12:20-04:00 "A++, would do business again." :) 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:12:16-04:00 2295901 5738 2009-09-03T01:12:16-04:00 This has been brought up before. All the literature I have seen on pricing suggest that you first start by looking at what a comfortable annual salary would be. Car payments, house payments, food all that stuff. Then work out how much time a year you can actually work. I mean real work making designs, not chatting about this that and the other. Actual productive time. Add to that your experience, skills and comparable prices. Comparable to what other people drawing zombies are charging for there stuff. This is where the numbers should come from, what you the designer needs to not die of hunger homeless in a pool of urine. I may find it in my heart to let something go for cheap, But that should be at my discretion and not an "all the time" thing. The point is it's not a random number I made up. It's a rate that is calculated for my needs. It's insulting to have someone go lower, because they don't want to pay. That is to bad, that's how paying for things works the world over. I would like to pay less for gas, and food, and housing, but I have to pay what I am asked or I walk home, go hungry, or sleep on a park bench. I would rather go without a tee shirt design then any of these other things I just mentioned. I think clients can learn the value of savings, same as everyone else. Stop haggling please. It's a number if you don't want to pay fine. I have a good reason for not going lower, It has nothing to do with wether or not I am an asshole, or conceded or anything else. (witch I totally am by the way, but I try not to let that influence my business dealings.) 70831 Post 2009-09-03T01:18:55-04:00 2295951 506 2009-09-03T01:24:43-04:00 ^ thanks for your clarification, I can totally agree (Your initial comment confused me) <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> I have noticed just like there are amateur "designers" on the doodle side of things. There seems to be a growing number of amateur clients. People buying art for the first time that have no clue about usage, or limited rights.</blockquote> It can be complicated material to grasp for first timers. Lowish prices are one thing, but agreeing upon a decent usage deal is often overlooked. Selling full rights away is disadvantageous for designers and usually not needed. How about adding a default contract that has first usage rights as default to be downloaded from the resources section? Maybe even a simple set of terms and conditions to go with it. It may help less experienced designers as a starting point? 70831 Post 2009-09-03T02:18:28-04:00 2296521 7859 2009-09-03T02:18:28-04:00 <blockquote><cite>uzi said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>markusmanson said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Frenden said:</cite> TRUE FACT: According to The Graphic Artist Guild’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines - 12th Edition, pg. 185, Fig. 9-11, we should be charging $1000-$2500 for a tee design. And that’s not even full rights. That’s the fee for first production rights only. An additional 100-150% should be added for full rights. Think that over the next time you feel like your work isn’t worth more than a couple hundred dollars.</blockquote> i laughed my ass off after reading this one.. and i forwarded it to my friends, and they also laughed.. we laughed in irony, man... i'm from Indonesia, and do u know how much one design for the local clothings costs here? $10 HOW BOUT THAT?! $10 is the average of all fees, but there are also many designers here that got paid only for $2,5!! can u imagine how's their feeling after reading that "TRUE FACT" hahahahahahhahahahahhahaha *again laughing in irony and pain*</blockquote> Come on! Living in a country with a ridiculous exchange rate is not an excuse to charge low and ultimately destroy the industry. I'm from the Philippines, but I never let the exchange rate overwhelm me. I know what my art is worth.</blockquote> hahhahaha word, dude... this pricing thing i think could never be resolved.. as long there will always be many fresh designers (but with awesome skills) that still don't need a lot of money, and willing to let go their artworks in a very cheap fee... sigh.. i'm already sick of this for a long time.. this thing makes the design price keeps lower instead of higher.. (it's a very disturbing thing in my country) 70831 Post 2009-09-03T02:33:32-04:00 2296701 12014 2009-09-03T02:33:32-04:00 That is a great idea for dealing with professional buyers, but the cattle call approach to hiring makes this difficult, I am often left wondering if I have even been hired or I am just wasting my time. One of the perks of contacting me directly is I can go over my terms in detail and have an open dialogue about such matters before I even make my first sketch. It's unfortunately not one size fits all. It depends on the requirements of the job what my final quote will be. If it's a no hassle design that is already finished and ready to send out. That is a quick and painless deal for the both of us. I see no reason to make things complicated. If it's a detailed series of designs, on multiple garments, in a multitude of colors, that effects the design and imposes some restrictions I must overcome. Like wise if you are doing 50 shirts for family and friends or a charity fund raiser, that is different then if you are quicksilver or nike. Just getting the terms together and agreeing on that can be a challenge sometimes. Add to that the possibility of not even getting awarded the job and you can see where some frustrations may come from. I will say that I understand the hardships of finding someone who's style will work and is also available for hire. It that case I see no problem with asking this community who is available for the job, that's just good research. What I do have a problem with is. 1. I need a designer as a job description. Please tell me more. There are as many varieties of designer as there are flavors of ice cream at baskin robbins. Not all flavors may suite your taste. Be specific. 2. Pick 1 person out of all people that contact you and award them the job promptly. Or however many you will actually be buying from or contracting. 3. Please tell the others "Some other time, I have found another designer" promptly as well. I want to make it clear. Clients are not the enemy. Use some discretion, If it's a sour deal pass. 70831 Post 2009-09-03T02:51:31-04:00 2296911 506 2009-09-03T02:59:25-04:00 Wow! I just read everything up above and it's the most I've read at one time in a while. It was worth it though. There are a lot of very good points addressed. Great way to start a discussion, Dan. As Ray mentioned I also read the part in the GAG guidelines about what we SHOULD be earning per t-shirt design. It reminded me of all those "looking for new designs at $50 or $75 each" posts on here. First of all, in my opinion, that price is ridiculous for anything art related that someone put time and effort into. I mean I have 20+ designs that are over 2 years old but I will never give them away for that small of a fee even if I just created them for fun. And yes, I did post on some of those blogs in sarcasm which lead to people thinking I was serious. Sadly, there were a lot of new guys that were serious in those posts. I guess it's something that won't go away and will continue to hurt our side of things until something is actually done about it. With that being said I strongly suggest that Emptees should/could have a few more moderators to catch, warn, and delete these types of posts when they occur. I'm sure many people, including myself, spend an hour or more here daily and would be willing to put an end to the cheap posts, crazy drama, and rips, without being compensated to do so. Maybe even place some type of "reply at your own risk but you're hurting all of us" warning at the top of these posts so new, trying to make it, designers don't get burned in the process. It all depends on how much someone values their own work. It also has to do with trying to get their foot in the door or feet wet, which ever you prefer. Eventually, once a designer does sell a design at a deserving, standard range price they shouldn't ever go backwards. That's the difficult part for some trying to make it. In the meantime: http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/ 70831 Post 2009-09-03T04:01:21-04:00 2297441 2861 2009-09-03T04:01:21-04:00 <img src="http://www.grabup.com/uploads/8e9c85957056999dfc827b98afe8fceb.png" /> <a href="http://www.duhcorp.com/">DuhCorp.</a> I love the mission statement attitude of these guys. It's on the cusp of rude, but it is so true. Why even bother hiring someone to do any task if you don't have confidence that they can pull it off. If you could do it yourself you would. Hire a pro, please. 70831 Post 2009-09-07T15:48:56-04:00 2359581 506 2009-09-07T15:48:56-04:00 goddamn son i thought i typed a lot. but solid points. this should be condensed tho... only slightly clients are like girlfriends lol. sometimes you gotta put your foot down, but you still treat them with love or you get none.. but cheap ones... eh. they need to be told whats what 70831 Post 2009-09-07T16:07:29-04:00 2359801 10321 2009-09-07T16:07:29-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> <img src="http://www.grabup.com/uploads/8e9c85957056999dfc827b98afe8fceb.png" /> <a href="http://www.duhcorp.com/">DuhCorp.</a> I love the mission statement attitude of these guys. It's on the cusp of rude, but it is so true. Why even bother hiring someone to do any task if you don't have confidence that they can pull it off. If you could do it yourself you would. Hire a pro, please.</blockquote> <img src="http://www.duhcorp.com/img/header1.jpg" /> 70831 Post 2009-09-09T11:51:42-04:00 2390811 4244 2009-09-09T11:51:42-04:00 I read this entire post, including all the comments. I'm guilty of doing the cattle call posts here on emptees, finding designers for my bands. I agree most with Trevor. My first cattle call here was very successful. I got many replies and many e-mails and I responded to everyone. In my thread I posted how much we were willing to pay, what themes, how many colors we look to do and deadline. When I came back for a second time for a different band, less responses, but I also didn't ask for people to create brand new designs unless they wanted to. I basically asked for designs they already made that could be reworked for this band (minor changes like name change, colors, etc), but still got crap for it. I also approached all the great designers who submitted for the first band and asked them to come up with something for this other band. Only a handful responded back. I feel like a lot of designers feel like their time is being wasted with posts that ask for designs but I think clients prefer the option of looking at many different designs from different artists than working with one designer for 3 designs. Like trevor said, those cattle calls really find artists who want to work, and it is easier getting designs than e-mailing 5 or 7 designers whose portfolios I like and waiting for a response, if they respond at all. It's also slightly scary to just pick a company to work with (like we did with our silkscreen poster) and they are doing the design, we have to put 500 dollars down and don't get any allowances if we don't like the design! I'd rather select work I like before committing to one designer whose work I may not like for my particular project (even if I've seen his work and like their design aesthetic for other things). When being commissioned for a band merch I think some designers who are used to working for companies tend to overcharge or feel like they aren't getting paid enough for their design (some very true- under $150 isn't enough), but I won't ever pay for any design that costs $600- $1000, we just don't have the initial capital to pay for something like that. Most bands aren't the Rolling Stone and don't make enough back to pay designers commission. 70831 Post 2009-09-09T17:20:55-04:00 2396771 8234 2009-09-09T17:20:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Mai said:</cite> I read this entire post, including all the comments. I'm guilty of doing the cattle call posts here on emptees, finding designers for my bands. I agree most with Trevor. My first cattle call here was very successful. I got many replies and many e-mails and I responded to everyone. In my thread I posted how much we were willing to pay, what themes, how many colors we look to do and deadline. When I came back for a second time for a different band, less responses, but I also didn't ask for people to create brand new designs unless they wanted to. I basically asked for designs they already made that could be reworked for this band (minor changes like name change, colors, etc), but still got crap for it. I also approached all the great designers who submitted for the first band and asked them to come up with something for this other band. Only a handful responded back. I feel like a lot of designers feel like their time is being wasted with posts that ask for designs but I think clients prefer the option of looking at many different designs from different artists than working with one designer for 3 designs. Like trevor said, those cattle calls really find artists who want to work, and it is easier getting designs than e-mailing 5 or 7 designers whose portfolios I like and waiting for a response, if they respond at all. It's also slightly scary to just pick a company to work with (like we did with our silkscreen poster) and they are doing the design, we have to put 500 dollars down and don't get any allowances if we don't like the design! I'd rather select work I like before committing to one designer whose work I may not like for my particular project (even if I've seen his work and like their design aesthetic for other things). When being commissioned for a band merch I think some designers who are used to working for companies tend to overcharge or feel like they aren't getting paid enough for their design (some very true- under $150 isn't enough), but I won't ever pay for any design that costs $600- $1000, we just don't have the initial capital to pay for something like that. Most bands aren't the Rolling Stone and don't make enough back to pay designers commission.</blockquote> i reply to every design related email i get. 70831 Post 2009-09-09T17:31:54-04:00 2396971 1087 2009-09-09T17:31:54-04:00 Before I reply at all, I'm totally guilty of putting up my portfolio in those cattle call threads... mostly because I'm not at a point where most people even think to come to me the majority of the time. <blockquote><cite>Mai said:</cite> I feel like a lot of designers feel like their time is being wasted with posts that ask for designs but I think clients prefer the option of looking at many different designs from different artists than working with one designer for 3 designs. Like trevor said, those cattle calls really find artists who want to work, and it is easier getting designs than e-mailing 5 or 7 designers whose portfolios I like and waiting for a response, if they respond at all. </blockquote> My buddies, A Faylene Sky just recently found Emptees. They went through the Designs For Sale and checked out the different artists work. And guess what? They picked out a few designers they liked and are now working with them. It doesn't get much simpler than that. There are other ways to find artists besides having them come to you, and you don't need to be the Rolling Stones to do that. <blockquote><cite>Mai said:</cite>It's also slightly scary to just pick a company to work with (like we did with our silkscreen poster) and they are doing the design, we have to put 500 dollars down and don't get any allowances if we don't like the design! I'd rather select work I like before committing to one designer whose work I may not like for my particular project (even if I've seen his work and like their design aesthetic for other things). </blockquote> Say you walk into McDonalds and say "I want all of you to make me a different burger. Whichever burger is the best is the one I'll pay for." Yeah, that's absurd. The real world doesn't work like that... why would expect artists to work like that? If you don't like a artists terms or don't have faith that they will do a good job, go with another artist. Plain and simple. 70831 Post 2009-09-09T17:49:46-04:00 2397161 2329 2009-09-09T17:49:46-04:00