I know this has been talkied about at least 50 times since I joined here.....and that's only been a month now...the trendy-clique-mob here is crazy so I'll get flamed I know... but maybe someone will take the advice to heart...and maybe it'll help someone....so it's worth it. - So I just thought I'd post this. I deal with a totally different type of art than most of you - but I've sold so many crappy shirts for other companies it's ridiculous....but they made the money on them....not me...and it starts to suck once you do this for 10+ years.... Just a bit of advice for newer artists wanting to make a living doing this. If you are intimidated by the business aspect....get an Art Rep!....they will take anywhere from 5-30%...but since anyone can post an online portfolio now-a-days....they are looking for artists to rep....plus they know the business, and have connections, you can only dream about....and they know how to squeeze every last penny outta the budget. Don't do spec work!....if you know you are good enough to do this for a living then ask for payment. if you want to get your name out there...there are much better much more effective ways. like sending out promo material, or charity work. Always set a rough charge and a final charge....and rarely take royalties...unless there is a legal contract, and it's a very reputable company...royalties are "almost" always a scam. we charge $100-150 for a rough and $800-$1200 for a final....for a 1 time design. but hey if a client wants 10 designs at a crack, I have no problem giving price breaks...$50 a rough $600 a final....it is relationship building. If someone can sell a tee for $25 the company should have no problem buying the design rough for $50. Our good clients don't even require roughs anymore, we've built the trust up so it's waived, and it goes right to final. plus the final time input vs invoiced amount is what matters...balance it out. If your hours into a job ever equals $0 invoiced...you are doing it wrong. Prices will always depend on the demand of the art, and how many printed pieces they are selling. Find Out how many they are selling! if a company is selling 5000 pieces, the art can at least be $1000..that's $.20 per shirt cost. but at 500 pieces, the art is $2 per shirt cost....so price accordingly. and always get a deposit on the final...or setup legit business credit terms with them....dont just give away net30/60/90! Always retain your Rights!....or charge a pricey premium to transfer full rights. Remember you always retain your rights, unless you specifically sign them away in writing. I know alot of you know this but some beginners don't....just thought I'd help. There is a lot of tires spinning in the art world, and most of it is self imposed. just my .02 Flame On. 2008-06-19T23:06:23-04:00 16 2008-06-19T16:12:23-04:00 true 0 4319 false false 40 4344 1 2009-11-20T23:36:19-05:00 354 I think you touched on alot of great points! thanks! 4319 Post 2008-06-19T16:22:30-04:00 112272 3168 2008-06-19T16:22:30-04:00 Thanks coach. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T16:27:50-04:00 112277 506 2008-06-19T16:27:50-04:00 wow. great points. you won't see me flaming! thanks 4319 Post 2008-06-19T16:35:44-04:00 112280 1087 2008-06-19T16:35:44-04:00 "the trendy-clique-mob here is crazy" i knew i wasnt imagining things. tis the reason your skilled rendered hog, went naught with praise whilst other some mediocre, was the prized dog. can you post a rough. how rough, are your roughs? 4319 Post 2008-06-19T18:10:40-04:00 112342 2865 2008-06-19T18:11:01-04:00 Don't get me wrong ...the mob rocks hard too!.....the Manticore "tar and feathering" has gotta be the single most effective, and coolest art defense ever. Not sure if anyone here has actually filed suit for damages in court before....but it sucks.....and even if you win, and the court awards you money....the courts are not collectors....so you still have to try an get your judgement money...and that's even harder...nearly impossible. Manticores destroy it right from the start....unbelievable Winning the prize...Nah, my designs are very narrow market...I know this...plus that design was sold already...it was just on my screen at the time. ...the cliquee I mentioned is just typical forum stuff. ...emptees just is more trendy focused... that's all. I also post sparsely in the t-shirtforums, and screenprinters.net...and if anyone ever went there ya know they are way different from each other, and really different from here. I'll post some roughs tonight. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T18:51:41-04:00 112386 4344 2008-06-19T18:51:41-04:00 Dude some valid points over here! About rights though, wouldn't all clients want full rights? If you don't sign a contract transferring full rights, does that mean you can resell the design? Say I charge $XXX per t-shirt design, shouldn't I assume that the full rights goes to client? 4319 Post 2008-06-19T19:35:13-04:00 112423 1259 2008-06-19T19:35:13-04:00 Hmmm "Art Rep". That hasn't been talked about much. How do you go about getting one? 4319 Post 2008-06-19T19:46:58-04:00 112437 1219 2008-06-19T19:46:58-04:00 LOL you aint lying, I am on t-shirt forums, and its a different "mob". but I like your post and never thought about an art rep, especially for tee designers, how would they "shop" your art. I am very intrigued, wonderful post! 4319 Post 2008-06-19T20:10:47-04:00 112447 5341 2008-06-19T20:10:47-04:00 <blockquote><cite>collisiontheory said:</cite> Dude some valid points over here! About rights though, wouldn't all clients want full rights? If you don't sign a contract transferring full rights, does that mean you can resell the design? Say I charge $XXX per t-shirt design, shouldn't I assume that the full rights goes to client?</blockquote> Rights are only transferred if it explicitly states that in writing....or if your under contract, or employment. Generally everyone wants full rights...but the law is that your creative work is entirely yours, and you essentially license it out for use....unless you sign them over...which is fine...just charge appropriately. we usually grant full rights for exclusive apparel usage. I know one colleague, who did a logo / brochure collection, for this company which then appeared on billboards, buses, magazines...without any extra compensation... essentially they swindled a $50000 ad campaign out of him, for the price of a identity package....sux....be he gave them the full rights to use his designs. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T20:20:05-04:00 112458 4344 2008-06-19T20:20:05-04:00 i would love an agent- anyone? hahah no really... :) 4319 Post 2008-06-19T20:22:51-04:00 112461 2802 2008-06-19T20:22:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Jon Kruse said:</cite> Hmmm "Art Rep". That hasn't been talked about much. How do you go about getting one?</blockquote> Ha ..yeah Art Rep's were going outta style when I got outta college...in '99...it used to be the only way to go...before those lovely intrawebs but now we work with Wilson Illustration Group for some of our more extensive work...it's just easier....the more work you get - the less time you have to do actual art...emails, phone calls, invoicing, shipping....it takes over! there are tons out there http://www.workbook.com - probably the industry staple of listings http://www.wilson-zumbo.com/ http://www.magnetreps.com/ here's a list http://www.dmoz.org/Arts/Illustration/Representatives/ just remember they WILL take a commission, and watch out they will want you to be exclusive with them...which means you live and die, by what they can drum up. Some of them are picky too....if they have someone with a similar style...they may flat out deny you...I guess it depends...how many business's they cater too. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T20:28:28-04:00 112470 4344 2008-06-19T20:28:28-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Eternyl said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>collisiontheory said:</cite> Dude some valid points over here! About rights though, wouldn't all clients want full rights? If you don't sign a contract transferring full rights, does that mean you can resell the design? Say I charge $XXX per t-shirt design, shouldn't I assume that the full rights goes to client?</blockquote> Rights are only transferred if it explicitly states that in writing....or if your under contract, or employment. Generally everyone wants full rights...but the law is that your creative work is entirely yours, and you essentially license it out for use....unless you sign them over...which is fine...just charge appropriately. we usually grant full rights for exclusive apparel usage. I know one colleague, who did a logo / brochure collection, for this company which then appeared on billboards, buses, magazines...without any extra compensation... essentially they swindled a $50000 ad campaign out of him, for the price of a identity package....sux....be he gave them the full rights to use his designs.</blockquote> So how do you know how much you should charge to transfer full rights? 4319 Post 2008-06-19T20:57:55-04:00 112491 1259 2008-06-19T20:57:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Godmachine said:</cite> i would love an agent- anyone? hahah no really... :)</blockquote> I was thinking of you when I asked me question. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T21:07:12-04:00 112498 1219 2008-06-19T21:07:12-04:00 That's tough....we rarely transfer complete rights.... I'd probably charge an insane amount or write up a provision that states what it can and can't be used for. ....usually if a company wants to do this....they have something else in mind. I'd just ask why....It can be understandable if they just want to own the art...it's usually better to license it tho. ...full exclusive apparel rights usually work fine. or determine what you would be comfortable with...an extra $100, double the cost?....I guess that's another one of those individual issues, like determining how much to charge for art, and who you want to buy it....and if you care if you see it in Times Square on a building or not. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T21:31:24-04:00 112509 4344 2008-06-19T21:31:24-04:00 A+++ on everything you said. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T22:29:02-04:00 112541 3352 2008-06-19T22:29:02-04:00 In my opinion full rights should easily double the cost. 4319 Post 2008-06-19T23:06:23-04:00 112582 40 2008-06-19T23:06:23-04:00