Ok, I know what spec work is, and I’ve been turning down jobs left and right because of it. What I want to know is. What is the best way to tell a prospective client that offers spec work that what they are doing is hurting the design industry and not come off sounding disrespectful? I got lucky this time, a major label that I’ve done work for in the past decided to switch to spec work and emailed me to see if I was interested. I let them know that I wasn’t willing to be a part of it and they actually emailed me back to get work done on a piece by piece basis with no competition involved cause they liked what I’ve done for them in the past and understood where I was coming from. I think this company fit’s in to the 0.01% of clients that doesn’t get angry with me when I tell them spec work is not a good thing. I would like to figure a way for all of us (cause I’m not the only one that sees this issue) to have a standardized email that we send out when we are offered spec work to stear clients away from doing that type of work in the most respectful and professional way possible ... maybe I can get that percentage up to 1% someday. I think Ray will definitely have some good incite in to this subject. thanks everyone.
48 Comments
dougie said 5 months ago
sorry, what is 'spec' work...
sittingduck said 5 months ago
spec work = speculative work. The simplest way to say it is when a client offers a pay range like "100 - 300 depending on the design" ... which means the client has to judge your work after it’s finished so there’s no guarantee that they won’t just pay you 100 when you think you put 300 worth of time in to it. Another part of spec work is competition ... The client will ask you and several artists to submit work but only one or a few will be chosen. This causes artists to work for free if their work is not chosen.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
http://www.no-spec.com/
justgeoff said 5 months ago
what major label are you working for, SD?
dougie said 5 months ago
oh yeah, cheers.
even kill fees don’t fully make up for the work you put into something if its rejected.
Randomentity said 5 months ago
that’s cool that they didn’t freak out on you and now come to you directly.
Spec is bullshit. A standardized form would be nice, and then when companies contact every designer on here for spec work and all get hit with the exact same email, maybe they’ll get the picture.
kyleisez said 5 months ago
mehhhh, thats just the way it works, I feel like you should be putting 300 into a design even if its for a "100 band" your name goes on it / with it anyway.
thats the problem with some people. Just dont take the job then.
LaurieShipley said 5 months ago
Personally I don’t think it’s necessary or professional to try and convince the company that spec work hurts the design industry and why would they care? They know what they’re doing, they are here to make money and as long as other people are willing to do spec work, why would they stop?
If you’re turning it down, the company will get the point.
justgeoff said 5 months ago
I was just going to post that. Why waste your time "informing" a company that doesn’t give a shit.
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
I am soo pissed with this right now, just a sec ago I received this:
And they contacted me, they said they want designs from me. I so much hate this part of our job. I would really think we must find a way to let them know this before they contact us
Claudia,
If you could please submit a sample that would be great.
feel free to visit the site to get a better look at our logo and our company.
I got one even better:
"I like your designs, I was wondering if you can do some for me. thanks"
I answer
Yes of course I can, just give me more details. Price is the one mentioned per approved design, with 50% upfront payment.
and he goes:
i was thinking more of getting low resolution vector file from you and once approved you can send me the original then I will send the contract and payment.
AND I GO CRAZY. I don’t even bother to answer is clear what they are looking for
justgeoff said 5 months ago
low res vector??? what is that?
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
more of getting low resolution vector file
Is he smart or what?
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
hhaa yep I just pointed out that too
jimiyo said 5 months ago
hyperhyphen: sorry to hear you are gettin the shaft.
i think, esp. you and anyone else wo a site, would have a better time with potential clients if you had an online portfolio. if i was an art director, and i was to only see the few pieces (4?) you have online, i would want to see more before i would decide to go with you. not that thats any excuse for the person you were referring to.
still... a port with even just 10 of your best images on a simple one page html would be better than under construction. it doesnt take a snazzy site with bells and whistles to show ADs what you can do. and then you can have the ball to shoot back, "my portfolio should show you my ability and skill as to not have to supply you with speculative work. my time is valuable... etc etc"
quakerninja said 5 months ago
I started working for a flat rate of $200/project. So far so good.
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
Yes I know I am working on it only that now I am caught up with exams and I didn’t managed to finish it (it’s a headache I cannot decide how to make it look)
The fact is that I was in a full time job until a month ago, and I was doing freelance but only if I really liked the project. I have a pretty big portfolio of apparel graphics, since that is what my job consisted on, so when somebody is interested I am sending a .pdf with that. I had great work opportunities from what I send (an Adidas Contract and a Diesel interview which was pretty nice they paid me hotel and air tickets just to meet me and discuss future opportunities) but only full time and I decided to finish my school since I have one year left so I am into freelancing now.
I am not posting those designs here (that’s why I have just 4), because are the commercial type of designs made for apparel companies and I want here to put my personal stuff only.
godmachine said 5 months ago
i cant afford to spend 2 days doing a piece may or may not be accepted- i dont trust myself yet to be good enough to do it- all it takes is one drummer to say 'oogg oggg me no like' for the design to be rejected. I do designs for myself- and if they like them- they can buy them- I think it works out better for the companies too. I think- oooh i dont know i’m new to this....
heroes said 5 months ago
if you dont want to do spec work dont! easy as that
justgeoff said 5 months ago
I agree. I do spec work VERY sporadically. If it’s a band that I like or a label I want to work with I’ll do it, especially if there’s a good deal of direction. Most of my stuff is non-spec recently. It just all depends I guess.
Kevin Doom said 5 months ago
lol. well said.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
man imma gonna do some spec work in the near future. im gunna make sum Sturgis Motorcycle Black Hills crap, and go and try to find someone to buy em. just cause I wanna do some cow skulls and crap.
check out http://www.teedesign.com , i think dood has won Sturgis Tee of the Year several times. Id like to compete with him/them cause they kick ass.
godmachine said 5 months ago
I would love to have some of those tees...I love that crap. Got gettim tiger!
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
I just had a flashback my ex employer was like a fan of this type of work
He was saying all the time like 3D WORK, you need to make it look 3D:)
I hated to do those sorry, I still do, respect for the guy (for the technique) they are like 3 brothers doing this but it still gives me the nightmares
Sol Amstutz said 5 months ago
I’ve been doing some spec work lately, just because I feel i need to get my foot in the door as a designer so i can at least develop a relationship with the larger labels/bands so that they will come back to me in the future. i don’t like doing it, but i feel like its a good move for me since i haven’t been doing this that long and don’t really have a name for myself yet.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
I actually have two contacts that already have Sturgis clients, if you fancy doing some Sturgis work, I can possibly send you their info.
Ha.
I used to do Nascar shirts, and they were always saying
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
"Track Icons"
and Id ask... WTF are Track Icons, and our manager was a numbskull so he would tell us, stuff around the track. And they never supplied photos, so we’d have to go search the internet for photos we could rip images from. I hated it. Also the last year I was there, they put a ban on lightning, fire, thunder, sparks, any natural disaster, tribal, and imposed the logo regulations where ANY logo had to have a thick stroke and be away from the imagery. All creativity was killed by that law. Before the shirts were somewhat fun, now my ex coworkers make cars, a slogan, and then slap ugly logos around the shirt. no creativity whatsoever, but thats cool anyways, cause the artists I left behind sucked balls anyways.
sittingduck said 5 months ago
yea, the company sent me this: (i’ve deleted any names so I don’t make them look bad, cause I do like working for me, and like I said before, they understood where I was coming from)
Hello,
I have recently joined the (name deleted) family and will in charge of a lot of the design outsource and shirt submission. We have a pretty big demand for shirts coming up so I will be taking submissions. We want to try a new process, one that allows you to submit as many designs as you wish. We will be paying out on use ($125 per design that is chosen). We want to have a pool of designs to chose from, and make new shirts every week, really flood the market with designs. This means that we need to agree that once you submit a design, it will sit in the "pool" for 30 days (or until it is chosen to go into production). After those 30 days, if it has not been chosen for production, or we have not asked you to make a some changes, we waive all rights to use the shirt and you can shop it anywhere/to anyone after.
Right now (name deleted) is a priority as we need new designs ASAP, and with (name deleted) being on the (name deleted) tour we will be going through a lot there as well.
All submissions for any shirts need to be sent to me at this e-mail, in a low res jpg, just so we can see the design, and if we are into it I will reply looking for a better file.
Feel free to write back and introduce yourself, as I do not know many of you, and feel free to start submitting designs at any time.
With the growth of the company on pace, and the new merch store that you all will hear more about soon, we will be growing super fast, and needing a ton more work, which means a lot more money, so stick with us, get in, and lets all grow and make a lot of money together!
Attached are the 4 bands logos, incase you did not have them
(name deleted)
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
LIKE THIS? I think this was the only one I finished, I hate doing this all the way it was hard I didn’t found an easy going technique well I didn’t try hard since this is the one and only, so I gave up especially since some of my coworkers were like yours, got all excited in doing this stuff. Like PICK ME PICK ME
jimiyo said 5 months ago
I dont like how they hype themselves. I dont trust anyone who says shit like
"With the growth of the company on pace, and the new merch store that you all will hear more about soon, we will be growing super fast, and needing a ton more work, which means a lot more money, so stick with us, get in, and lets all grow and make a lot of money together!"
Talks like your old friend INRI.
For $125 per design, no ones gonna be making anything for them thats so hot its gonna take their company to new heights.
Unless you are hurting for money, I think you should definitely move on.
Its one thing for a company like Billabong, Quik, or someone like that to throw their weight around and abuse designers, but for a company thats relatively unknown, FUNK THAT.
You would be better off doing KICK ASS designs, and contacting the band YOURSELF. You would most likely have the same or better potential of getting business.
Dont let the clout of the bands they might be working with, entice you. Bands come here and seek people to buy from. You dont need the middle man stickin it to you.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
Similar
We did stuff like
http://emptees.com/tees/3601-teh-suck-5
http://emptees.com/tees/3577-teh-suck-4
From what I hear, they are just ripping the freelancers cars now and ploppin em on the shirts. The last time I visited I saw a bunch of my stuff being ripped and reused too.
hyperhyphen said 5 months ago
now jimiyo, good we escaped from that sort of crap.
My boss had another one, he was like the master of mankind when comin into town, so he was everything from artdirector, to owner and account everything imagine the mess.
So he enjoyed rejecting entire collections we where doing by saying:
PINOCCHIO
The story was he read a book about how Disney made Pinocchio, they where just at the start of it so in the end they evolved so much the start was nothing like the end of the movie.
So he rejected anything at the beginning no matter how good it was, just to arrive at deadline picking anything he found around. Playing God was like his favorite game :)
Eternyl said 5 months ago
Actually the Lean Bros.. don’t "win" the #1 design....it is chosen to be the number 1 waaaay before sturgis even starts....
we do a bunch for the same company...and they are a bunch of marketing guru’s.
pretty much they declare a design is the official #1 and advertise the hell out of it....which in turn generates sales, because all of the visitors to the rally view it as the must have.
I know harley has some issue with this...but legally it’s fine so far.
pretty brilliant.
by the way if anyone is looking to do biker stuff, I always have a ton of info....it’s just a way different look.
sittingduck said 5 months ago
see, they sent this out, then I replied and let them know I don’t so spec work and that their price is way too low and they emailed me back and let me know they’d be willing to work directly with me and for my price because of work I’ve done for them in the past. They’re cool guys, I’m just trying to stear them in the right direction, does that make sense? They at least listened to me, how can we get other companies out there to do the same?
justgeoff said 5 months ago
So this is a major label??
godmachine said 5 months ago
brum brum neeeeeoowwwwnnn yeah man- i love it- get me a harley and a bottle of bud and an american flag and an eagle that flys over my head when I ride- cant ride anywhere excpet big grand canyon type of places though, listening to Hermano....yeah man i love it hahahah.
Sushilove said 5 months ago
I think spec work is a part of how the design industry works. You can’t really avoid that. Even doing comissioned work with upfront payments and stuff, the client may not like what you’ve done and all your hard work will go to waste...
I mean, if you work as a freelance it’s going to be like a competition all the time. There’s a million great designers out there that are fighting for the same jobs. You have to constantly push yourself to be a better designer.
gabroll said 5 months ago
To me, no spec is like an artist saying "I can do no wrong." which, if that were the case, they shouldn’t be working for the man anyways, but rather doing their own thing, selling it, producing it, etc.
So a customer is supposed to be forced to pay you for whatever fart in the wind you draw. That’s just bad business.
Eternyl said 5 months ago
this thought process is why spec work is thought to be okay....it is not...it devalues the industry.
The problem with most artists, especially new artists...is that they are poor business people....i think it might be the different side of the brain, or just not enough education in the business aspect of running a business.
unfortunately being a freelancer is running a business.
Working for free is bad,bad,bad business practice...
but doing promo work is a good business practice....but don’t do spec work, and try to fool yourself into saying it’s promotional work.
derekdeal said 5 months ago
no, that’s just silly, i dont think its too much to ask for a nominal deposit or kill fee to account for your time, provided an agreement cant be met. A lot of times these submissions are used to facilitate the middle mans job, which is to provide design options for the artist/end client. Some merch providers realize this and pay submission fees, but its still pretty rare.
I dont even ask for deposits unless i know that the client is shopping work from 12 different artists. Thats where people are getting screwed. Rounding up twenty designs when you know you’re only going to pay for 3 is bullshit. Nobody should be expected to accommodate that scenario.
i came from nothing said 5 months ago
The only way not to do it is to have 20 or so clients who use you all the time, so your always too busy.
So you can fire an emaill back to SPEC emails, saying "I require £500, and 50% deposit etc" then if they dont want to continue, who cares? If they do well your get extra work.
Gabroll: quite correct..+100
gabroll said 5 months ago
In a case like this, it makes more sense, but there’s still no blanket rule at the very least. "No-Spec, No Exceptions" could just as easily mean "No Work."
Eternyl said 5 months ago
"No-Spec, No Exceptions" could just as easily mean "No Work."
"No Work"....that’s pushing it a bit far.
A good rule however
No-Spec, 1 exeption
- you are a good withstanding client who orders frequently...and pays promptly.
Spec is so wrong it’s borderline theft...it just preys on the novice /startup artist.
zoot said 5 months ago
I have to agree with Eternyl about only doing work for good, known, paying clients, and then, only maybe. Only sometimes. Like maybe birthdays or golden anniversaries. Or it’s actually, truly, definitely going to be really, really high exposure.
Not to get on a soapbox, but having led some decent sized agencies and hired a fair share of graphic artists in the past, "no spec" is just good policy. You may get less work, but you will also be on a more level playing field with your client. No client will ever respect a vendor who gives the work away. And just try raising your fees after the first one. Once you give on spec, then you might as well just bend over and take it on changes, payment terms and representing/defending your direction with any integrity.
The elephant in the room is that buyers of art services know that many artists are desperate for work. And, they know that most creative people have a nagging insecruity about their work and need validation - in this case, the job. And they exploit that. Knowingly.
Bottom line is that if your work is good - stand up for it. Ask for the same payment any other vendor would ask for. Do you think that the accounting firm is going to give away the first audit to see whether the client likes it???
Work harder at finding the right clients. The rest will take care of itself.
Sorry for being preachy. Something I feel kind of passionate about...
zoot said 5 months ago
Oh - and to the guy who wants blanket submissions with a buck-25 payout...someone please tell this clown to stuff it up his
Hands On Clothing said 5 months ago
My take;
I buy artwork all the time, the artist sets the price and i pay it. If it is premade, i will make an offer based on what i feel it is worth in a comparison of the quality i have recieved in the past from other artists.
I pay 100% upfront based on the artists reputation here, therefore, i do not undervalue any artists.
I have never turned down a custom-made piece, and i think it’s best the artist tells the client how much the design will cost them before it is created.
I feel this is the best way to deal with it.
heroes said 5 months ago
im not the biggest fan of spec but
if you have a spare day and you aint got much work on whats the harm
or sometimes you see the bands that need shirts and just an idea pops into your head
ive earned quite alot this month of spare days where i have done 2 or 3 spec shirts maybe only one got accepted but atleast it wasn’t a day on the xbox worst comes to worst you get a bit of practice on photoshop ,illi ect which is always a good thing in my eyes
maybe im talking rubbish but frankly i dont care :]
derekdeal said 5 months ago
i like zoot
zoot said 5 months ago
I like you too. (hug)
;)
landshark said 5 months ago
if you don’t want to do spec work, don’t do it.
spec work exists in almost all industries, primarily in the entertainment and art. actors/actresses spend hours upon hours practicing for an audition, where they are up against 50 other people. Writers give spec scripts and manuscripts, in hopes of being able to separate themselves from the pack. illustrators have to submit portfolios to magazines.
spec gives a lot of people opportunities to show their work and practice. it provides an in for people just starting out.
if the the person hiring is coming to you first and asking you to work for spec, they’re dumb. however, if you went to them for work, trying to sell yourself and get work, and they ask for spec, i don’t see the problem.
eventually once you’re established i imagine you won’t have to work spec, you’ll just have to start pitching projects, which can be just as competitive i’m certain.