it happens all the time at my actual job, a web development/marketing firm...
such & such company comes to us and wants a ridiculous website - I’m talking ridiculous backend customization & implementation, content-packed, professional web design & development.
we have a ridiculously easy to comprehend development process white paper that we share with the potential clients so they know how we are utilizing their money.
so they receive that, along with the proposal and so very often we hear 'are you kidding? $60,000? our Vice President has a nephew who will do it for $1000.
Great...have his nephew do it. See how that turns out. Of course there are people doing sites for that cheap who are entirely competent...BUT... its giving a twisted perception of the value of a service...a service that pays my bills!
Luckily, we’ve gotten pretty good at re-explaining the proposal and usually end up getting the client, but whats bothersome is how cheap some people work...or how short they sell themselves!
The same goes with t-shirt designs...thats what spurred this rant, actually. People gladly accepting very little $$$ for designs...on one hand, its great for someone building a portfolio...on the other hand, now everyone thinks tee designs should be dirt cheap! bah!
...i’ve lost my steam, but my point was/is... stop selling yourself short, folks! make them bastards paaaay!
156 Comments
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
i wanna charge $60,000 for a project....
Truman325i said 5 months ago
I disagree, for some companies starting out like mine , I dont have a lot of money to spend on an artist. I have some , but it is not a lot.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
do it.
hey you do web stuff, right? you might enjoy this read. Newfangled is this RI based web firm...they average like 100k a project. Its a great article on web pricing
clicky clicky
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
also, charging 60,000 or any large number is obviously great for the bank account, but you have to keep in mind the overhead necessary to complete such a project...usually its a multi-phase project that will consume a large chunk of man hours for far longer than the average little project.
like if we get 100k for a project, but it takes 5 months...thats only 20k a month...and after paying salaries, bills, etc etc...it gets smaller and smaller and smaller
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
Totally, the place I used to work for the jobs would be 100k +. Would blow my mind... just slowly working to get to that level cause it will be great to pull in more than 5k - 10k a web project.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
we actually just recently made the jump over the last few months. We’re in the 10-20 range for awhile - now we’ve moved up a bit. There are only two of us though so the workload is RIDICULOUS. we gotta get some more people in asap.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
same here man. Its just two of us at synapse right now and I’m the only web guy. And working the 12+ hour days are draining me out but you can’t say no to some of these projects.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
you put the friend in frenden! *playful shoulder punch*
Sol Amstutz said 5 months ago
I’ve lost a ton of work because people don’t want to pay me what I want to charge. I’m trying to get my foot in the door and get established as a freelancer, so I’m willing to do work for cheaper prices sometimes if it means getting the client for my portfolio.
heroes said 5 months ago
im sick of hearing about money on this site!!!!
as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do
Randi said 5 months ago
I snorted when I read this!
justinryan said 5 months ago
This logic is flawed, in my opinion.. People charging too low devalues what some of us do (in the eyes of potential clients). It gets to the point where, the client will pay less and go with someone else, even if the quality of work is much lower. Having a slightly lower price when you are a beginner isn’t a big deal, but when there is a kid who’s myspace says you will do a shirt design for 15, and banners and logos free, websites for 50, they are bringing down the value of what we do. Just my two cents...
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
money is a huge part of this culture though. As much as we love to do it we are trying to make a living doing it. So when people get to that point that they are working more than they are getting paid for its nice to be able to ask others what they charge.
justinryan said 5 months ago
Agreed. I’m not gonna lie, my prices were awful when I was younger, but now that this is what pays the rent and bills, it is certainly a concern...
heroes said 5 months ago
so what? you want everyone to charge the same i can guarentee you would get no work they would go straight to frenden, rushing ,EZ,jimmy,derek,godmachine ,sock monkee,geoff
small companies and small bands cant afford to pay 200 dollars for a shirt its a fact . this is how small designers get there foot in
its the world we live in you pay for what you get .You dont see ferrari phoning ford and going OW! mate seriously 10k for a car come on .
see what im getting at if ford charge 500k for a car your obviously gonna buy the ferrari
justinryan said 5 months ago
Totally didn’t read what I said, huh? haha I even said something about slightly lower prices for beginners, etc so I’m not sure where you read that I think everyone just starting out should charge the same as people who have been in the game this long. Please show me where I said that so I can go ahead and edit it, because it was clearly not what I meant.
Come on dude. It’s not the difference between Ford and Ferrai that I’m talking about. It’s the difference between Bentley and Huffy that I’m talking about.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
for the record small bands can and do pay $200 bucks for a shirt... that technically 40-50 per person, not that hard to do. And if they want quality work they appreciate it and will pay for it... they are artists too.
And were not saying anything about charging the same, were talking about moving up prices so that people who aspire too can actually make a living off doing this. The problem is your trying to lump every designer into one category where as like cars they are in very different levels. Im not trying to say people in the "pinto" status should try and jump to the "s7" level, but work their way up the field. And you do that by asking how much people charge and slowly drive your price up as your quality improves.
heroes said 5 months ago
id say your work and some on here was ford and ferrari
heroes said 5 months ago
i make a fine living a very fine living and i can tell you ive never charged over $250 every to design a tee and it hits me harder because of the exchange rate
justinryan said 5 months ago
What’s the point of a cheap shot dude? I’m trying to have a civil, respectable conversation with you. Really low.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
ouch man, ouch... and quite low.
And thats something your comfortable with. We have our rates and I am comfortable with those as well. We are so crazy generous to our clients (you can ask those here who I have helped out) that we do bend and break our prices quite often to help people out. But to make a living where your not working 12+ hour days it is nice to raise your price so you can really develop a product instead of just rushing through them. Personally I like to really develop a project and have it grow instead of rushing, and with a higher rate it allows me that time.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
this has always bugged me... when a band of 5 people has a $50 budget for a tee design...are you kidding me? each of you is only willing to throw $10 into it? that just proves to me that the band isn’t serious.
i don’t get it. back when i played in bands we’d do just about anything to raise some money for some superior merch design, no matter the cost...b/c you get what you pay for...you have to spend money to make money...etc etc etc.
MykeCatastrophic said 5 months ago
"...you gotta spend an arm and a leg to make more arms and legs."
-Johnny Cupcakes
heroes said 5 months ago
sorry
Jon Kruse said 5 months ago
"Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys"
- David Ogilvy
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
I totally agree on the first point.
As for spec work, I’m kind of more flexible on this. Although it does hurt the industry I think there might be some cases where I would do spec work. Designing for SOME bands is one. Also, if say a big brand like Obey would start asking designers to submit work and only get paid for the ones they like to print, then I’d surely jump at the opportunity.
Randomentity said 5 months ago
i’m glad we’re talking about money!
i’m completely clueless when it comes to financial shit.
One of the things I had always wondered when getting into design was "how much do i charge? what is this service worth?" and for some reason no one wanted to talk about it. or they’d give wishy washy comments about the complexity blah blah blah.
I think we do something very important, brand identity, which is what EVERY tee-shirt design is re-vamping. is super important to a band, clothing company, whatever you’re doing.
So yeah, guys that charge less, charge more! Like ExplodingToes said, if a band isn’t serious enough to throw down some cash for a design, then they’re probably not worth working with.
And Ray, what’s spec work? and why shouldn’t we do it?
Randomentity said 5 months ago
oh, that’s what i thought, awesome link.
i’m still waiting for you to rip me apart for my linework.
haha.
edword said 5 months ago
so contests are kind of like spec work?
I like contests.
sittingduck said 5 months ago
I can understand making 250 per design heroes .... but we don’t make that cause someone will do it for 100 or less .... I have a few clients that love my work and are totally wlling to pay 250 ... but even they drop me sometimes cause someone will do it for 100... it’s dumb that people think they will have a successful clothing company or band by not paying for quality. I work at a bicycle shop as well to pay the bills and we would be doing 10x the business if walmart level bikes didn’t exhist ... but people are stupid and would rather pay 70 bucks for a bike that will break in two weeks or less than 700 for a bike they’ll keep for 10 to 20 years .... I can’t stand it when clients low ball me on prices....
heroes said 5 months ago
is this just not all personal choice? spec work is just part of the industry
im pretty sure top design companies come up with 3 or 4 ideas per client? correct me if im wrong
heroes said 5 months ago
im not starting an argument!
but people who accept the spec work know what there getting into ?
edword said 5 months ago
What do suggest new designer trying to get started charge. You have to start somewhere. I try to me far but not blood clients dry, but if I like the project sometimes I’ll drop my rate.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
Its not bad to lower your rates at all when your starting, but dont get it to that point that you will take on any client for a cheap rate... like don’t be known as the $100 guy. Im not too sure how to say it... Just from experience it just gets frustrating when we list our prices (very reasonable) and they counter with well blah blah will do it for 100. If this other person raises their rate to what is competitive it wouldn’t be an issue.
Make sure you stay firm on what you think you should be paid. Cause thats the part that gets frustrating, there is a difference between being competitive and cutting prices... totally what sittingduck said.
gabroll said 5 months ago
I will politely disagree. Goodie Two Sleeves® makes designs and offers them to retailers. Some designs sell, most do not.
If in contrast we offered only 4 designs every month that we really liked, we would be out of business. In the same way, if we only waited for people to come to us with their ideas we wouldn’t be successful or at least consistant.
I wish it worked differently, especially because I don’t like wasting time. But every time Urban Outfitters comes to us saying "Make this dumb Mardi Gras idea" I say "Those guys suck" and get to work, knowing full well they have contacted Paul Frank and Local Celebrity and whoever else they like this month regarding the same project.
All that and we are by no means the Wal-Mart of this indusrty. Which reminds me of when I use to say "That band sold out" when I was fifteen. Yes, they may have sold out, but they were probably just trying to afford a pair of pants.
That being said, here’s the rest of the story:
+100
MykeCatastrophic said 5 months ago
Wow man. I don’t even know where this guy was getting all of these 'insults' in your e-mails.
Name names! haha
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
I disagree with the comment at the top and the comment about spec work… I buy 5 to 10 shirt designs per band per quarter and I have 4 bands… I can’t simply afford to pay $150 to $300 for each design in advance with out knowing what I really want or if my trusted designers will produce what I want. I also can’t go back to the same designer every time to keep things fresh.
Doing spec work for a manager could give a rising graphic designer a chance to get noticed and give them great exposure, which could put them in a position to make up the difference on other clients that are motivated by the work they have seen from past work. I also know that there are a billion people that call themselves designers and spec is a great way to weed the good from the bad.
Spec work can be done right when a client pays good for the shirts they pick up. A client never reveals when they get a deal on a shirt and you focus on building a returning client relationship. After all don’t relationships still matter and as much as designers talk so do managers. Great pricing and spec could be a win win for client and designer alike.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
nice ray, I had an issue with a client in the past about this as well. The convo went almost exactly the same way. Its amazing when you point out how it works they flip it back on you like your are against them.
But essentially what they want is like going to some contractors, having them build out several different houses, then they will pick the one they like the best. Sure the one gets paid, but what about all the time and effort of the other contractors.
heroes said 5 months ago
ok im sorry i didnt mean to offend anyone i was just trying to say i think money is a personal thing you dont ask people how much they earn normally (well i dont) as i was taught it was bad manners
but also are these not the risks of going freelance instead of just getting some chushy job at a design firm?
are you looking for any new designers : ]
MykeCatastrophic said 5 months ago
Which offer?
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
Frenden said 1 minute agoQuote
I respectfully disagree and will never participate in such an offer.
Thats cool... I really love your work and hopefully one day i will be able to work with in your terms but until then..... All those who are hungry and want to get paid doing what you love hit me up!
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
... we did your guys myspace. I liked doing that one, one of the myspaces that was actually handled by me. Usually glenn does all those things.
I get what ray is saying though. Doing spec work is like competing in threadless but for an actual company instead of a contest. The company is getting to choose from all these options where only one person will end up being paid. Good for the company (hence how threadless is a $30 million company) but sucks for all the other designers out there who didn’t win.
I do spec work from time to time, but its usually for clients I have established a connection with on a previous job. And its more like "wanna do a tee"... so I fool around with an idea or two and send it over. If they like it they can buy it, if not I sell it to someone else.
MykeCatastrophic said 5 months ago
Yeah, I just figured that out haha.
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
After telling clients I charge $XXX they go tell me "oh i found someone on emptees who’ll do it not more than $90". I fucking hate that.
How did you manage starting out though? You never did any spec work like maybe 4 or 5 years ago?
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
AMAZING WORK ON THE MYSPACE BY THE WAY!!!!!!! I already have three more jobs lined up for you! Relationships work out great...
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
hahaha, not sure why, but that really made me laugh. I wonder who it was.
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
There will always be spec work in any industry. Especially in the creative industry, I’ve worked as an Art Director for a big ad agency and we used to do at least 1-2 pitches (essentially spec work) for big clients in a month. Toiling for weeks without guarantee of winning the business. Unfortunately, it’s a buyers market and it will always be there. I agree with Ziplokk, there can be a win-win situation for spec work between a designer and client.
Jon Kruse said 5 months ago
I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in.
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
Ray I understand, I do but designers are like bands, There are a few that are great, a lot of mediocre ones, and most suck. The great ones get to pick and choose what jobs or shows they choose but many of them have to do $50 to $100 dollar shows in nasty places to get where they want.
For you this entire blog shouldn’t apply you are to a place where you pick and choose you maintain your clients and treat them well they will pay you what you need. I mean rushing has produced time and time again for me and the band started using him two years ago. I will pay him what he needs i go back to him time and time again and he gets the first right of refusal on a job. He didn’t end up at that point but worked to it...
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
Jon Kruse said 3 minutes agoQuote
I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in.
No need to get nasty its friendly banter!
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
Awesome! I’m guilty of spec because of all the contests I join and doing work for Caleb/Amy of Fueled by Ramen and other labels on here.
So how’d you do it? Can you tell us more about getting work without doing spec? You shared that email about showing your work to a guy, I guess you do a lot of marketing yourself I assume?
Lol i know right i don’t even remember who it was now.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
I agree, but it also hurts the others in the industry. It essentially turns every job that is spec based into a contest. And when you could pay $200 to see 2 - 3 designs from 1 designer vs $200 to see 20-25 different designs it is for sure good for the client. But that mentality leads to people not searching out designers anymore and just doing this "contest".
And for the record I like contest tee sites... but to me those are different than actual clients. Its like an art show where the best pieces get promoted to stay in the gallery full time. Just feel like people do those things to promote what they like to put on a tee instead of designing for a specific client.... not to mention it lets me buy some killer shirts I wouldn’t know about otherwise.
Its for sure a torn issue because I know it would be a lot harder to break into this industry if there wasn’t spec jobs, but on the other hand it would make you be a lot better at your work if you only got it through people coming to you. We would see a lot more high end designers.
totally man, this is a good thread! No pettyness (minus a little in the middle there), people just being strait up honest on their stance. I feel like we should all be in a bar some where hashing this out.
heroes said 5 months ago
in my opinion the way the industry is set out the only way to get work not spec is by doing a whole lot of spec work
which leaves young artists in a catch 22
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
WE SHOULD BE IN BAR HASHING THIS OUT!!!!!
Eternyl said 5 months ago
Regardless....Spec work is bad for the industry without a doubt...that’s a fact.
...however it may work for some individuals, and they might even prosper - but it is at the expense of the industry as a whole, and its a shame....
...and portfolio building is fine for cheaper rates - but even beginner artists out there really need to start charging for all the time they put into it....concept/rough charges.
working for free - even for your dream gig, is just robbing yourself.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
the problem with this industry is that anyone with a computer and illustrator jumps into the game. Its not like other jobs where you need an extensive background or training. Hence the massive overflow of "designers". A lot of the younger people have the mentality that they don’t need to take the steps to really work under people and move up. They want to be the star right away. No one starts out as stock boy, then mail person, then moving to designer, then creative directory, then blah blah... everyone wants to be that guy in charge.
be sure to hit me up if your ever out in san diego.
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
Oh yes I didn’t say it doesn’t hurt the industry. It totally does. It’s a necessarily evil is what i’m saying. I’d rather not do spec but understand it is there and will never go away. I pick my battles and just spec out the ones I’m really interested in.
About getting work, it’s chicken and egg. You can’t find work if you don’t have work to show off. And a lot of beginners don’t have work to show off. So sometimes spec is one way to go to help build your folio.
I love this thread!!
Jon Kruse said 5 months ago
I don’t think you understood me correctly. There have been a lot of times where people get in stupid arguments on this site and resort to calling each other homos and other slurs. I am just pointing out that this is not one of those times!
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
Here is another argument:
If you put a minimum price on work like $200 for a shirt design couldn’t you in theory be putting yourself on a ceiling for how high work should be priced out. I mean it’s true that some people are under charging but alot of fools are over charging as well. If we are going to put minimum thresh holds for clients there needs to be maximum thresholds on design work as well.
Eternyl said 5 months ago
in a different industry....alot of people do spec work for would never do the same....
I wonder if I can get 5 to 10 different bands to each perform an entire spec concert at a bash I’m throwing this summer.
...and then only pay the one I like, since I’m not familiar entirely with their work, and not sure how the end concert will really end up until I see the work.. and I really want to get the most for my money.
seems like a win/win to me...at least the 9 other bands will get experience, and get their name out there.
might just work.
Randomentity said 5 months ago
why can’t the client pay an hourly fee for the designer doing spec work, and if they actually like the design, pay the full price. that way the artist gets at least something for their time.
Eternyl said 5 months ago
it would be paid work then, and not spec, that would be perfect.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
the problem with that is usually there are usually several designers doing the spec work. So instead of paying 1 designer your paying 5, which defeats the purpose of doing spec work.
ZiplokFF5 said 5 months ago
Ray,
I hear you man but I think a majority of your frustration comes from uneducated clients and I think thats the nature of the beast... It’s easy to get some you band dude or some intern at a label or mgmt company to call you and want a design for $75 bucks. but thats what you guys get paid for to be educated for them. It sucks but the revolving door will always be people want it for less, they want more then they deserve, and its always a short time line.
I have nothing but respect for you dude we will work together in the future!
not under spec I promise... Disregard the email i sent to you earlier....
Randomentity said 5 months ago
so the problem is that clients are a bunch of cheapasses. got it.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
I think thats one of the problems with the design world, it doesn’t have the 'cache' of the art world because there are so many people out there who claim to be designers. Not many people will just go I want a rushing, or a derek deal. All they say is I want something that looks like this and sends a mock up instead of going to that designer who did it.
I think its getting better but still has a long way to go. Emptee’s is sure helping though to get these designers work based on people seeking them out.
heroes said 5 months ago
i blame myspace
Randomentity said 5 months ago
+ a billion
Quetzalcoatl said 5 months ago
i got to say this is greatly helpful, im just starting out, finishing school, and to be able to 'listen' to this is pretty ace, i have to agree with Frenden and Killer Wombat here.
i know im starting out and cant charge tons, or what i will eventually, but it is frustrating when people want things done for almost nothing, its crazy, ill pass on the cheapskate who wont shell out the cash for what they’re getting.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
... and im spent. This was a good ass thread... time to go hit up the gym.
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
As designers, I think we should all strive to become true artists. That way clients come to us for our work/our style, wouldn’t it be cool to hear "I want a Frenden" or a "I want a Wombat". I’m sure Ray is at that point already because you know his style and I’m sure there’s lots of clients who want that style.
Interestingly enough, I just spoke to a client who wanted SI SCOTT (http://www.siscottstudio.com/) to do some stuff for his clothing line and realized the dude charges $5,000-$8,000 for his work!! nice!!
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
That’s my goal Ray! To get sought out for doing my thing. The artists who truly blaze their own trail, having their own style seem to be the most successful ones. So how’d you realize that your style is what you love doing? I find it difficult though because my influences are so eclectic. I’ve had some success doing my style of calligraphy/writing (http://www.behance.net/Gallery/Calligraphy--Handstyles--Typography/93122)
Some clients ask me particularly to do something like that. But I don’t see myself just doing something like that forever. You know what I mean?
collisiontheory said 5 months ago
Haha thanks Ray means a lot! You should see how i do it too, no cintiqs, no pen and tablet, just a good 'ol crappy mouse and the calligraphy brush on illustrator. =)
derekdeal said 5 months ago
the way business is conducted in this industry is way different from what im used to in the agency realm. A lot of jobs are so quick and loose that a good deal of faith and integrity is relied upon to make these transactions happen. It makes the whole system very amateuristic and flimsy. Ideally id love to charge deposits and have contracts for each job, but to keep the wheels good and greased i usually forgo these things. Quite recently ive started finding that its hard to even know how many people the client is in contact with, and whether or not they actually are spec’ing out lots of artists at the same time. In one situation several months ago it turned out that upwards of 7 other designers where contacted on a job with no knowledge of each others involvement. The client was very much capitalizing on a broken system and milking the designers talents for all it was worth. Its these situations that infuriate me the most. I can understand a client wanting variety, but creating these designer corals is disgusting. I think if you’re going to contract several artists, clients need to make informed decisions about who they are contacting and at least concede to paying nominal submission fees. It only seems fair to me.
sittingduck said 5 months ago
ok, I’ve read most of this post since my last comment ... it’s getting long. but something I can see here is:
1. Spec work sucks, so far, it hasn’t worked for me once, BUT reselling the designs that were turned down has made me a lot of money.
2. If you do spec, the best way not to work for free is to NEVER do spec work on a text only design, illustrations can be resold with a different tag on them, text has to be completely redrawn. I only do spec this way so if I get the job, cool, if not, I’ll probably make double what I was offered in the first place.
3. I’m sooo tired of being lowballed ... I’d say 75% of the people that email me about pricing either don’t email me back after I tell them, or tell me "so and so" will do it for $100 or less ...
4. Ray Frenden is the coolest guy on this entire planet, I’m super happy that this community has him here to point us all in the right direction, this guy is smart as hell, we need to pay attention.
5. The design world should not be a competition, everyone has different styles. We should all push eachother to be better artists as well as recommending eachother to clients as other options for what they need. the goal should be that what a client bases their search for potential designers on is there ability, not their price.
6. I wanted to show you guys low balling in action, I wanted to do some work for this guy, then I noticed what he was selling his own work for ...
(copy/pasted from another thread)
WTF?!?!?!
sittingduck said 5 months ago
INRI clothing did that same EXACT thing to me and heavyprints ... little did they know I talk to the guy all the time and we happened to bring up our current client in a conversation .... we just decided to make a little competition out of it ... he ended up winning just based on what the band liked better ... but it still pissed me off that I wasn’t told there was another designer on the job, especially because of the crazy awkward situation it created between me and someone i consider a friend.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
sittingduck said 5 months ago
coulda sworn i told everyone to avoid them a few months ago ... they STILL contact me for work ....
derekdeal said 5 months ago
its not really a big issue if two designers are working on the same job, more than 3 is suspicious because you know your odds of getting work approved lessens, if only for the client to have a better variety.
and SD, 55 is NOT an entry level salary, i think most designers would be deluded to think they can make that off the bat.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
totally! Entry level design positions are like 24 - 32k
heroes said 5 months ago
at the end of the day is it all not personal choice
and aslong as you respect yourself and your client
and are happy with the income you are getting isn’t that all that matters?
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
not when I have to battle with cheap clients for work.
the point isn’t 'you need to stop charging so little', the point is 'everyone needs to start charging what they are worth, and as a result, we will all benefit.'
-------------------
and i don’t buy that 'well cheap designs are all i can afford' argument. just because you want to sell tees, but can’t afford my design doesn’t mean that myself or anyone else owes it to your business ambitions to devalue our work. thats really frustrating. if you want amazing work for your line, spend an extra month saving up some money and pay fair price for an insane tee design. it’ll be worth it.
hmph.
Tender Branson said 5 months ago
At my agency when work is requested we consider it a labor request and charge per hour. Just like an electrician would charge you for any labor that he does, so do we.
The biggest problem with 'spec' work that we run into is not only are we usually wasting our time but that’s when we have clients that will take our design ideas to someone else who will do a cheap (horrible) re-creation of the original. And unless you want to spend a lot of time in court battling copyright and usually losing.. it’s really not worth it.
If you have a solid enough portfolio with a range of design work the people coming to you asking for designs will know what type of work you do and they can expect from you. If they don’t, then they’re not worth working with anyhow.
edgillustrator said 5 months ago
amazing, i learned so much from this :]
sittingduck said 5 months ago
wait wait wait .... when did I say I make 55k a year? haha ... that was what jimiyo said and I quoted him, then he edited his post ... fuck if I made that I sure as hell wouldn’t be paying rent at this shitty apartment anymore!
Also, it wasn’t the fact that there was one other artist on the project that pissed me off, it was the fact that they acted as if I was exclusive to that project, then I found out my good buddy heavyprints is doing the same one ... I don’t like to be fucking lied to ... that’s unprofessional in every sense of the word.
derekdeal said 5 months ago
gotcha, sorry for the misquote
jimiyo said 5 months ago
i was saying to make an entry level position salary while freelancing after all health, taxes, etc are taken out, youd have to make approx. 55k freelancing.
salaried, i started many years ago at 30k plus commission, and ended up around 40-45K depending on commission within a couple years. designing for a regular apparel company doesnt pay much. even the big company in town who prints humongoid quantity of mass market stuff, the main guy there didnt get but 50-55 and he’d been there for close to 20 years.
sorry i edited. it seemed superfluous and unexplained.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
Its all good duder, I got what you were saying. I’m not a huge fan of numbers and saying how much you make but I started out at a 55k+ a year job out of college so it is possible for people to do that, just very very hard, many of the other people I graduated with started out around 25k... I only lasted about a year until I ended up quitting to pursue synapse. Its hard as hell sometimes some months but I love being able to work for our own company. Hence why this spec work was a big issue for me... makes my job harder when everyone is saying they will do it for $100 or if your design wins you get paid.
i hope I dont come of arrogant in this little tid bit. Hence why I hate naming how much people make. Just wanted to kinda let other designers / coders know that if you work hard you can start out with a very nice salary.
jimiyo said 5 months ago
Word. Yeah, for $100, it’d be tough to make a living. Even if you didnt pay taxes and just went under the table, at $100 a pop, even $200
a modest 24,000 / 200 = 120 designs.
a design every three days.
still a tough road, considering you’d have to snag freelance gigs to supply you with enough work to fulfil that order.
as far as contest spec, aye. i know what you are saying about that. i do think its a risky road for most. personally, i guess i dont mind it because ive put myself in the position of not having to worry about money for the rest of the year so if i win great, if i dont win, dont matter. its mainly about doing art i want to do. by the years end, if i continue on track, ill have about 25 solid, as best as i can designs, all art directed by me. so when people look at my portfolio, its me that they are seeing, not a client requested design. i also think contests are a good way to get your name out there. especially if you hit big time like threadless, which i have yet to do.
BTW. wow. i had never been to your site. that bird shooting thing is gonna keep me entertained for hours if i ever get drunk.
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
Ah, I meant the "contest" thing as being spec work... how when a client asks several designers and picks one. I love contests, I need to enter some here and there and get on that boat with some of the extra designs laying around.
And yeah, Iove that splash page but sadly its been up for far too long. I am trying to get a little website together for synapse that should go up next week sometime... dont worry though, you will be able to shoot birds still. I might even add some noise and blood.
MykeCatastrophic said 5 months ago
Please do. I really want to see some more of Synapse’s portfolio, and although shooting the birds is fun, I’m really interested in seeing a full on site. Maybe even add a whole 'Games' section for the birds and anything else you put together?
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
its nothing too amazing so don’t get your hopes too high, haha. We just need to get something up so I am trying to work on it on the minutes between projects.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
how are you guys showing potential clients your previous work? just curious.
justinryan said 5 months ago
For the record, I’ve seen the new synapse portfolio and it is off the hook!
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
so the mythical beast DOES exist!
a killer wombat said 5 months ago
haha... we use a strange combination of zombie slime, man of the house style rain dances, and the power of hypno-toad to lure new clients in. I dunno, we have such a nice client base and a good repose with all of them that a good majority of our work is just continuing the relationship. Kinda once your in with the label your in.
... and now I guess I really have to go work on it.
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
amazing. we’ve been doing all of that, except using a regular toad in lieu of hypno-toad. no wonder business is down!
justgeoff said 5 months ago
That’s why you contact a designer who you know has a good track record and whose work you like. That way you know that the money will be well spent.
I charge half up front and half upon completion, unless it’s a client I’ve established a relationship with. I provided concept sketches along the way so the client gets EXACTLY what they want. In the end, they’re happy and I’m happy.
Admittedly, I have done spec work but have pretty much all but stopped doing it now. It’s not worth my time. I think I have a strong enough portfolio of work to show my worth.
jfinley said 5 months ago
I thought I’d add my two cents.
Most of the designers on emptees are freelancers - meaning they pretty much have one person to look out for. At Go Media, we are trying to build a company that allows all of its employees to live a satisfying life doing what they love.
We started at ground zero like everyone else. I was charging $200 for a website (including hosting) back in 2003. And I think I was charging $20 for a t-shirt design when I started.
When you start factoring in taxes, bills, payroll, and even luxuries such as medical insurance for everyone, dental, vision, and hopefully some paid time off - the overhead gets big. But it’s all part of building a team as opposed to running solo.
Now Go Media charges $100/hour for design work. Which is still low compared to other "firms" that we know. But it’s much more than most of the designers on Emptees are charging. We still have a commitment to quality and we’re all trying to get better every day. But Emptees has been both good and bad for us. Good because people are seeking us out by name and are looking for our style.
Bad because it’s a really convenient site for clients to come and find cheap designers. I have been emailed a handful of times from clients who forgot to change the name of who they were addressing. It would happen to be a fellow empteer whose work I think is also really good. I wrote back and then never heard from them again. Then I’d see shirts go up on Emptees in the next week or two from several different designers for the same project. Just makes me curious.
And I hate losing jobs for bands I want to work for because of price. I find myself cutting discounts and deals about 80% of the time. I am also against spec work, but its a sad fact that when you’re hungry, you do what you can to get the work. It also depends on if I’m seeking the band out or they band is seeking me out. If I am seeking the band and they aren’t even looking for my design work, I’m more inclined to discount it.
Ray, I like your stance on this. Stay strong.
Oliver said 5 months ago
Wow, I just read this entire thread. So many valid points across the board. I don’t want to ramble too long but I’d say the overall problem that we have is that the TALENTED people do not have the upper hand in the finances of a design project. We are the mercy of the client’s "budget." I use the term budget loosely because it seems to me like a lot of companies, especially merch companies, have the budget to pay the designers the proper rates, but don’t in order to further increase the profit.
I don’t want to repeat what Ray, AJ, and some of the others have said about dropping the rates, but think if you did that in another industry? Would you go into a dentist’s office and tell the dentist that "I’ll pay you 200-275 dollars to replace my front tooth?" "Oh, I guess this tooth is worth only 200, here you go."
explodingtoes said 5 months ago
mmmhm. being at the mercy of the client’s budget is awful. like I was saying...just because you, the client, only have X amount of dollars to spend on a design, doesn’t mean the design community owes it to you to devalue their services...just so you can hurry up and get your shirt out there to make some money.
part of the problem is the 'i want what i want and i want it now' mentality.
to compare it to personal finance - if you want a $4000 plasma tv, you don’t go into Best Buy and say 'hey, I can only spend $200 bucks, so you’ll have to give me the TV for that'
instead you start tucking money away in your savings account, and save up for it little by little until you can afford it.
I wish clients would have the sense to do THAT, instead of demanding designers discount themselves to fit into their budgets.
we, as designers, are the ones who SHOULD have the upper hand, as we are the skilled tradesmen who actually CREATE...but b/c of others devaluing themselves, we’re put in the position of 'work cheap for us or go away'
Oliver said 5 months ago
So we should start telling these clients that if they can’t treat us properly than they should move on. Hopefully when they do move onto someone else they will find the results to be subpar.