your prices are hurting my prices!

posted over 2 years ago by explodingtoes

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it happens all the time at my actual job, a web development/marketing firm...

such & such company comes to us and wants a ridiculous website - I’m talking ridiculous backend customization & implementation, content-packed, professional web design & development.

we have a ridiculously easy to comprehend development process white paper that we share with the potential clients so they know how we are utilizing their money.

so they receive that, along with the proposal and so very often we hear 'are you kidding? $60,000? our Vice President has a nephew who will do it for $1000.

Great...have his nephew do it. See how that turns out. Of course there are people doing sites for that cheap who are entirely competent...BUT... its giving a twisted perception of the value of a service...a service that pays my bills!

Luckily, we’ve gotten pretty good at re-explaining the proposal and usually end up getting the client, but whats bothersome is how cheap some people work...or how short they sell themselves!

The same goes with t-shirt designs...thats what spurred this rant, actually. People gladly accepting very little $$$ for designs...on one hand, its great for someone building a portfolio...on the other hand, now everyone thinks tee designs should be dirt cheap! bah!

...i’ve lost my steam, but my point was/is... stop selling yourself short, folks! make them bastards paaaay!

154 Comments

a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

i wanna charge $60,000 for a project....
Truman325i said over 2 years ago

I disagree, for some companies starting out like mine , I dont have a lot of money to spend on an artist. I have some , but it is not a lot.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: i wanna charge $60,000 for a project....

do it.

hey you do web stuff, right? you might enjoy this read. Newfangled is this RI based web firm...they average like 100k a project. Its a great article on web pricing

clicky clicky
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

also, charging 60,000 or any large number is obviously great for the bank account, but you have to keep in mind the overhead necessary to complete such a project...usually its a multi-phase project that will consume a large chunk of man hours for far longer than the average little project.

like if we get 100k for a project, but it takes 5 months...thats only 20k a month...and after paying salaries, bills, etc etc...it gets smaller and smaller and smaller
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Totally, the place I used to work for the jobs would be 100k +. Would blow my mind... just slowly working to get to that level cause it will be great to pull in more than 5k - 10k a web project.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: Totally, the place I used to work for the jobs would be 100k +. Would blow my mind... just slowly working to get to that level cause it will be great to pull in more than 5k - 10k a web project.

we actually just recently made the jump over the last few months. We’re in the 10-20 range for awhile - now we’ve moved up a bit. There are only two of us though so the workload is RIDICULOUS. we gotta get some more people in asap.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

same here man. Its just two of us at synapse right now and I’m the only web guy. And working the 12+ hour days are draining me out but you can’t say no to some of these projects.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: I am regularly surprised and saddened by the spec work and rates that people jump for when given the opportunity. Food for thought, you can do half the work at twice the price and end up even at the end of the day.

you put the friend in frenden! *playful shoulder punch*
Sol Amstutz said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: I am regularly surprised and saddened by the spec work and rates that people jump for when given the opportunity. Food for thought, you can do half the work at twice the price and end up even at the end of the day.

I’ve lost a ton of work because people don’t want to pay me what I want to charge. I’m trying to get my foot in the door and get established as a freelancer, so I’m willing to do work for cheaper prices sometimes if it means getting the client for my portfolio.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

im sick of hearing about money on this site!!!!

as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do
Randi said over 2 years ago

explodingtoes said:
Ray Frenden said: I am regularly surprised and saddened by the spec work and rates that people jump for when given the opportunity. Food for thought, you can do half the work at twice the price and end up even at the end of the day.

you put the friend in frenden! *playful shoulder punch*

I snorted when I read this!
justinryan said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said:as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do

This logic is flawed, in my opinion.. People charging too low devalues what some of us do (in the eyes of potential clients). It gets to the point where, the client will pay less and go with someone else, even if the quality of work is much lower. Having a slightly lower price when you are a beginner isn’t a big deal, but when there is a kid who’s myspace says you will do a shirt design for 15, and banners and logos free, websites for 50, they are bringing down the value of what we do. Just my two cents...
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: im sick of hearing about money on this site!!!! as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do

money is a huge part of this culture though. As much as we love to do it we are trying to make a living doing it. So when people get to that point that they are working more than they are getting paid for its nice to be able to ask others what they charge.
justinryan said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said:
heroes1985 said: im sick of hearing about money on this site!!!! as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do

money is a huge part of this culture though. As much as we love to do it we are trying to make a living doing it. So when people get to that point that they are working more than they are getting paid for its nice to be able to ask others what they charge.

Agreed. I’m not gonna lie, my prices were awful when I was younger, but now that this is what pays the rent and bills, it is certainly a concern...
rich.a said over 2 years ago

justinryan said:
heroes1985 said:as long as your happy with the amount you get dont worry about what others do

This logic is flawed, in my opinion.. People charging too low devalues what some of us do (in the eyes of potential clients). It gets to the point where, the client will pay less and go with someone else, even if the quality of work is much lower. Having a slightly lower price when you are a beginner isn’t a big deal, but when there is a kid who’s myspace says you will do a shirt design for 15, and banners and logos free, websites for 50, they are bringing down the value of what we do. Just my two cents...

so what? you want everyone to charge the same i can guarentee you would get no work they would go straight to frenden, rushing ,EZ,jimmy,derek,godmachine ,sock monkee,geoff

small companies and small bands cant afford to pay 200 dollars for a shirt its a fact . this is how small designers get there foot in

its the world we live in you pay for what you get .You dont see ferrari phoning ford and going OW! mate seriously 10k for a car come on .

see what im getting at if ford charge 500k for a car your obviously gonna buy the ferrari
justinryan said over 2 years ago

Totally didn’t read what I said, huh? haha I even said something about slightly lower prices for beginners, etc so I’m not sure where you read that I think everyone just starting out should charge the same as people who have been in the game this long. Please show me where I said that so I can go ahead and edit it, because it was clearly not what I meant.

Come on dude. It’s not the difference between Ford and Ferrai that I’m talking about. It’s the difference between Bentley and Huffy that I’m talking about.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

for the record small bands can and do pay $200 bucks for a shirt... that technically 40-50 per person, not that hard to do. And if they want quality work they appreciate it and will pay for it... they are artists too.

And were not saying anything about charging the same, were talking about moving up prices so that people who aspire too can actually make a living off doing this. The problem is your trying to lump every designer into one category where as like cars they are in very different levels. Im not trying to say people in the "pinto" status should try and jump to the "s7" level, but work their way up the field. And you do that by asking how much people charge and slowly drive your price up as your quality improves.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

id say your work and some on here was ford and ferrari
rich.a said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: for the record small bands can and do pay $200 bucks for a shirt... that technically 40-50 per person, not that hard to do. And if they want quality work they appreciate it and will pay for it... they are artists too. And were not saying anything about charging the same, were talking about moving up prices so that people who aspire too can actually make a living off doing this.

i make a fine living a very fine living and i can tell you ive never charged over $250 every to design a tee and it hits me harder because of the exchange rate
justinryan said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: id say your work and some on here was ford and ferrari

What’s the point of a cheap shot dude? I’m trying to have a civil, respectable conversation with you. Really low.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: id say your work and some on here was ford and ferrari

ouch man, ouch... and quite low.

And thats something your comfortable with. We have our rates and I am comfortable with those as well. We are so crazy generous to our clients (you can ask those here who I have helped out) that we do bend and break our prices quite often to help people out. But to make a living where your not working 12+ hour days it is nice to raise your price so you can really develop a product instead of just rushing through them. Personally I like to really develop a project and have it grow instead of rushing, and with a higher rate it allows me that time.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: for the record small bands can and do pay $200 bucks for a shirt... that technically 40-50 per person, not that hard to do. And if they want quality work they appreciate it and will pay for it... they are artists too.

this has always bugged me... when a band of 5 people has a $50 budget for a tee design...are you kidding me? each of you is only willing to throw $10 into it? that just proves to me that the band isn’t serious.

i don’t get it. back when i played in bands we’d do just about anything to raise some money for some superior merch design, no matter the cost...b/c you get what you pay for...you have to spend money to make money...etc etc etc.
MichaelLoSauro said over 2 years ago

explodingtoes said:
a killer wombat said: for the record small bands can and do pay $200 bucks for a shirt... that technically 40-50 per person, not that hard to do. And if they want quality work they appreciate it and will pay for it... they are artists too.

this has always bugged me... when a band of 5 people has a $50 budget for a tee design...are you kidding me? each of you is only willing to throw $10 into it? that just proves to me that the band isn’t serious.

i don’t get it. back when i played in bands we’d do just about anything to raise some money for some superior merch design, no matter the cost...b/c you get what you pay for...you have to spend money to make money...etc etc etc.

"...you gotta spend an arm and a leg to make more arms and legs."
-Johnny Cupcakes
rich.a said over 2 years ago

justinryan said:
heroes1985 said: id say your work and some on here was ford and ferrari

What’s the point of a cheap shot dude? I’m trying to have a civil, respectable conversation with you. Really low.

sorry
Jon Kruse said over 2 years ago

"Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys"
- David Ogilvy
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: Bottom line, undervaluing yourself absolutely hurts the industry. Spec work absolutely hurts the industry.

I totally agree on the first point.

As for spec work, I’m kind of more flexible on this. Although it does hurt the industry I think there might be some cases where I would do spec work. Designing for SOME bands is one. Also, if say a big brand like Obey would start asking designers to submit work and only get paid for the ones they like to print, then I’d surely jump at the opportunity.
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

i’m glad we’re talking about money!
i’m completely clueless when it comes to financial shit.
One of the things I had always wondered when getting into design was "how much do i charge? what is this service worth?" and for some reason no one wanted to talk about it. or they’d give wishy washy comments about the complexity blah blah blah.
I think we do something very important, brand identity, which is what EVERY tee-shirt design is re-vamping. is super important to a band, clothing company, whatever you’re doing.
So yeah, guys that charge less, charge more! Like ExplodingToes said, if a band isn’t serious enough to throw down some cash for a design, then they’re probably not worth working with.

And Ray, what’s spec work? and why shouldn’t we do it?
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: This is everything you need to know!

oh, that’s what i thought, awesome link.

i’m still waiting for you to rip me apart for my linework.
haha.
edword said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: This is everything you need to know!

so contests are kind of like spec work?

I like contests.
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

I can understand making 250 per design heroes .... but we don’t make that cause someone will do it for 100 or less .... I have a few clients that love my work and are totally wlling to pay 250 ... but even they drop me sometimes cause someone will do it for 100... it’s dumb that people think they will have a successful clothing company or band by not paying for quality. I work at a bicycle shop as well to pay the bills and we would be doing 10x the business if walmart level bikes didn’t exhist ... but people are stupid and would rather pay 70 bucks for a bike that will break in two weeks or less than 700 for a bike they’ll keep for 10 to 20 years .... I can’t stand it when clients low ball me on prices....
rich.a said over 2 years ago

is this just not all personal choice? spec work is just part of the industry

im pretty sure top design companies come up with 3 or 4 ideas per client? correct me if im wrong
rich.a said over 2 years ago

im not starting an argument!

but people who accept the spec work know what there getting into ?
edword said over 2 years ago

What do suggest new designer trying to get started charge. You have to start somewhere. I try to me far but not blood clients dry, but if I like the project sometimes I’ll drop my rate.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Its not bad to lower your rates at all when your starting, but dont get it to that point that you will take on any client for a cheap rate... like don’t be known as the $100 guy. Im not too sure how to say it... Just from experience it just gets frustrating when we list our prices (very reasonable) and they counter with well blah blah will do it for 100. If this other person raises their rate to what is competitive it wouldn’t be an issue.

Make sure you stay firm on what you think you should be paid. Cause thats the part that gets frustrating, there is a difference between being competitive and cutting prices... totally what sittingduck said.
gabroll said over 2 years ago

I will politely disagree. Goodie Two Sleeves® makes designs and offers them to retailers. Some designs sell, most do not.

If in contrast we offered only 4 designs every month that we really liked, we would be out of business. In the same way, if we only waited for people to come to us with their ideas we wouldn’t be successful or at least consistant.

I wish it worked differently, especially because I don’t like wasting time. But every time Urban Outfitters comes to us saying "Make this dumb Mardi Gras idea" I say "Those guys suck" and get to work, knowing full well they have contacted Paul Frank and Local Celebrity and whoever else they like this month regarding the same project.

All that and we are by no means the Wal-Mart of this indusrty. Which reminds me of when I use to say "That band sold out" when I was fifteen. Yes, they may have sold out, but they were probably just trying to afford a pair of pants.

That being said, here’s the rest of the story:
a killer wombat said: Make sure you stay firm on what you think you should be paid...
+100
MichaelLoSauro said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: Some exposition. I got a message or bulletin, I forget which, on MySpace from someone posting that a director/writer/producer type was looking for some poster illustrations for his indie horror films. I sent the following query: From: Ray Howdy, I’m a professional illustrator with a host of horror art experience. Most of my portfolio is skewed in that direction. You can check out a limited set of my work at Frenden.com. More samples are definitely available upon request. Thanks! Ray
From: XXX if you’d like to interview for the poster gig start with these specs. quickdoodle. has to be color for sure. start with this pic below... save room for the title too! must be poster dimension: 6 tall 4 across just like this except put a red hoodie on me in the background... maybe some meat cleavers on some one’s hand and 3 screaming,laughing crying severed bloody pig heads on the platter we will keep XXXXXXXX as a photo in the face. make my face more cartoonie... I want bernie Wrightson repost doodle here design directions and photo’s in this message remain © XXXXX filmm Entertainment at all times. no work for hire as of now. Truly XXX [Two images are attached.]

From: Ray

Most illustrators won’t accept speculative work. I just wanted to inform you that it’s pretty frowned upon in the industry.

From: XXX your are the only person out of over hundred that coped and attitude about it...I plan on paying some one $1000 and it has to be right. So u and I won’t be working together bye bye

From: Ray

Hi XXX,

I wasn’t copping attitude, nor did I mean offense.

I was only letting you know that most illustrators look down on that sort of work. I was trying to be polite and edify you.

There are entire organizations devoted to informing illustrators to avoid this work as it hurts our industry.

One person may end up with $1000, but several would have worked for free. It devalues our skills.

I encourage you to look at no-spec.com - it has a lot of information about how this business practice is perceived.

Have a good day.
Ray Frenden

From: XXX Well u did offend me. I never ask some one to work for free. I will persue my career as I always have. I am doing fine and I personally have worked for free on many occasions as an artist. I guess you don’t consider me an arrtist and apart of your industry. You are just full on insults aren’t you?

From: Ray

"Well u did offend me."
That was not my intent.

"I never ask some one to work for free."
You, by admission, have asked all artists who did not "win" this job to work for free. That is the definition of speculative work.

"I will persue my career as I always have."
Okay.

"I am doing fine and I personally have worked for free on many occasions as an artist."
Working pro bono is not working spec. An agreement between two parties where one does work for free can be mutually beneficial. I do lots of work for charities, for instance. Once again, to reiterate, that is not speculative work.

"I guess you don’t consider me an arrtist and apart of your industry."
I think you’ll be hard pressed to find the words, "You are not an artist." in my correspondence.

"You are just full on insults aren’t you?"
Nope. I am pretty sure I haven’t insulted you once. I was simply talking to you about the pitfalls associated with speculative work.

Wow man. I don’t even know where this guy was getting all of these 'insults' in your e-mails.

Name names! haha
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

I disagree with the comment at the top and the comment about spec work… I buy 5 to 10 shirt designs per band per quarter and I have 4 bands… I can’t simply afford to pay $150 to $300 for each design in advance with out knowing what I really want or if my trusted designers will produce what I want. I also can’t go back to the same designer every time to keep things fresh.
Doing spec work for a manager could give a rising graphic designer a chance to get noticed and give them great exposure, which could put them in a position to make up the difference on other clients that are motivated by the work they have seen from past work. I also know that there are a billion people that call themselves designers and spec is a great way to weed the good from the bad.
Spec work can be done right when a client pays good for the shirts they pick up. A client never reveals when they get a deal on a shirt and you focus on building a returning client relationship. After all don’t relationships still matter and as much as designers talk so do managers. Great pricing and spec could be a win win for client and designer alike.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

nice ray, I had an issue with a client in the past about this as well. The convo went almost exactly the same way. Its amazing when you point out how it works they flip it back on you like your are against them.

But essentially what they want is like going to some contractors, having them build out several different houses, then they will pick the one they like the best. Sure the one gets paid, but what about all the time and effort of the other contractors.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

ok im sorry i didnt mean to offend anyone i was just trying to say i think money is a personal thing you dont ask people how much they earn normally (well i dont) as i was taught it was bad manners

but also are these not the risks of going freelance instead of just getting some chushy job at a design firm?

ZiplokFF5 said: I disagree with the comment at the top and the comment about spec work… I buy 5 to 10 shirt designs per band per quarter and I have 4 bands… I can’t simply afford to pay $150 to $300 for each design in advance with out knowing what I really want or if my trusted designers will produce what I want. I also can’t go back to the same designer every time to keep things fresh. Doing spec work for a manager could give a rising graphic designer a chance to get noticed and give them great exposure, which could put them in a position to make up the difference on other clients that are motivated by the work they have seen from past work. I also know that there are a billion people that call themselves designers and spec is a great way to weed the good from the bad. Spec work can be done right when a client pays good for the shirts they pick up. A client never reveals when they get a deal on a shirt and you focus on building a returning client relationship. After all don’t relationships still matter and as much as designers talk so do managers. Great pricing and spec could be a win win for client and designer alike.

are you looking for any new designers : ]
MichaelLoSauro said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: I respectfully disagree and will never participate in such an offer.

Which offer?
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

Frenden said 1 minute agoQuote
I respectfully disagree and will never participate in such an offer.

Thats cool... I really love your work and hopefully one day i will be able to work with in your terms but until then..... All those who are hungry and want to get paid doing what you love hit me up!
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

ZiplokFF5 said: ...

... we did your guys myspace. I liked doing that one, one of the myspaces that was actually handled by me. Usually glenn does all those things.

I get what ray is saying though. Doing spec work is like competing in threadless but for an actual company instead of a contest. The company is getting to choose from all these options where only one person will end up being paid. Good for the company (hence how threadless is a $30 million company) but sucks for all the other designers out there who didn’t win.

I do spec work from time to time, but its usually for clients I have established a connection with on a previous job. And its more like "wanna do a tee"... so I fool around with an idea or two and send it over. If they like it they can buy it, if not I sell it to someone else.
MichaelLoSauro said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: I was responding to Ziplok. I can appreciate where he’s coming from, but do not agree with him.

Yeah, I just figured that out haha.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

After telling clients I charge $XXX they go tell me "oh i found someone on emptees who’ll do it not more than $90". I fucking hate that.

Ray Frenden said: I respectfully disagree and will never participate in such an offer.

How did you manage starting out though? You never did any spec work like maybe 4 or 5 years ago?
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

AMAZING WORK ON THE MYSPACE BY THE WAY!!!!!!! I already have three more jobs lined up for you! Relationships work out great...
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

collisiontheory said: After telling clients I charge $XXX they go tell me "oh i found someone on emptees who’ll do it not more than $90". I fucking hate that.

hahaha, not sure why, but that really made me laugh. I wonder who it was.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: nice ray, I had an issue with a client in the past about this as well. The convo went almost exactly the same way. Its amazing when you point out how it works they flip it back on you like your are against them. But essentially what they want is like going to some contractors, having them build out several different houses, then they will pick the one they like the best. Sure the one gets paid, but what about all the time and effort of the other contractors.

There will always be spec work in any industry. Especially in the creative industry, I’ve worked as an Art Director for a big ad agency and we used to do at least 1-2 pitches (essentially spec work) for big clients in a month. Toiling for weeks without guarantee of winning the business. Unfortunately, it’s a buyers market and it will always be there. I agree with Ziplokk, there can be a win-win situation for spec work between a designer and client.
Jon Kruse said over 2 years ago

I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in.
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

Ray I understand, I do but designers are like bands, There are a few that are great, a lot of mediocre ones, and most suck. The great ones get to pick and choose what jobs or shows they choose but many of them have to do $50 to $100 dollar shows in nasty places to get where they want.

For you this entire blog shouldn’t apply you are to a place where you pick and choose you maintain your clients and treat them well they will pay you what you need. I mean rushing has produced time and time again for me and the band started using him two years ago. I will pay him what he needs i go back to him time and time again and he gets the first right of refusal on a job. He didn’t end up at that point but worked to it...
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

Jon Kruse said 3 minutes agoQuote
I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in.

No need to get nasty its friendly banter!
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said:
collisiontheory said: How did you manage starting out though? You never did any spec work like maybe 4 or 5 years ago?

I have not participated in Spec as far back as I can remember.

Awesome! I’m guilty of spec because of all the contests I join and doing work for Caleb/Amy of Fueled by Ramen and other labels on here.

So how’d you do it? Can you tell us more about getting work without doing spec? You shared that email about showing your work to a guy, I guess you do a lot of marketing yourself I assume?

a killer wombat said:
collisiontheory said: After telling clients I charge $XXX they go tell me "oh i found someone on emptees who’ll do it not more than $90". I fucking hate that.

hahaha, not sure why, but that really made me laugh. I wonder who it was.

Lol i know right i don’t even remember who it was now.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

collisiontheory said: there can be a win-win situation for spec work between a designer and client.

I agree, but it also hurts the others in the industry. It essentially turns every job that is spec based into a contest. And when you could pay $200 to see 2 - 3 designs from 1 designer vs $200 to see 20-25 different designs it is for sure good for the client. But that mentality leads to people not searching out designers anymore and just doing this "contest".

And for the record I like contest tee sites... but to me those are different than actual clients. Its like an art show where the best pieces get promoted to stay in the gallery full time. Just feel like people do those things to promote what they like to put on a tee instead of designing for a specific client.... not to mention it lets me buy some killer shirts I wouldn’t know about otherwise.

Its for sure a torn issue because I know it would be a lot harder to break into this industry if there wasn’t spec jobs, but on the other hand it would make you be a lot better at your work if you only got it through people coming to you. We would see a lot more high end designers.

Jon Kruse said: I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in.

totally man, this is a good thread! No pettyness (minus a little in the middle there), people just being strait up honest on their stance. I feel like we should all be in a bar some where hashing this out.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

in my opinion the way the industry is set out the only way to get work not spec is by doing a whole lot of spec work

which leaves young artists in a catch 22
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

WE SHOULD BE IN BAR HASHING THIS OUT!!!!!
Eternyl said over 2 years ago

Regardless....Spec work is bad for the industry without a doubt...that’s a fact.

...however it may work for some individuals, and they might even prosper - but it is at the expense of the industry as a whole, and its a shame....

...and portfolio building is fine for cheaper rates - but even beginner artists out there really need to start charging for all the time they put into it....concept/rough charges.

working for free - even for your dream gig, is just robbing yourself.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: in my opinion the way the industry is set out the only way to get work not spec is by doing a whole lot of spec work which leaves young artists in a catch 22

the problem with this industry is that anyone with a computer and illustrator jumps into the game. Its not like other jobs where you need an extensive background or training. Hence the massive overflow of "designers". A lot of the younger people have the mentality that they don’t need to take the steps to really work under people and move up. They want to be the star right away. No one starts out as stock boy, then mail person, then moving to designer, then creative directory, then blah blah... everyone wants to be that guy in charge.

ZiplokFF5 said: WE SHOULD BE IN BAR HASHING THIS OUT!!!!!

be sure to hit me up if your ever out in san diego.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said:
collisiontheory said: there can be a win-win situation for spec work between a designer and client.

I agree, but it also hurts the others in the industry. It essentially turns every job that is spec based into a contest. And when you could pay $200 to see 2 - 3 designs from 1 designer vs $200 to see 20-25 different designs it is for sure good for the client. But that mentality leads to people not searching out designers anymore and just doing this "contest".

Its for sure a torn issue because I know it would be a lot harder to break into this industry if there wasn’t spec jobs, but on the other hand it would make you be a lot better at your work if you only got it through people coming to you. We would see a lot more high end designers.

And agree jon, this is a good thread! No pettyness (minus a little in the middle there). I feel like we should all be in a bar some where hashing this out.

Oh yes I didn’t say it doesn’t hurt the industry. It totally does. It’s a necessarily evil is what i’m saying. I’d rather not do spec but understand it is there and will never go away. I pick my battles and just spec out the ones I’m really interested in.

About getting work, it’s chicken and egg. You can’t find work if you don’t have work to show off. And a lot of beginners don’t have work to show off. So sometimes spec is one way to go to help build your folio.

I love this thread!!
Jon Kruse said over 2 years ago

ZiplokFF5 said: Jon Kruse said 3 minutes agoQuote I think this argument has been handled a lot better than most of the petty shit that goes on here. Just thought I would chime in. No need to get nasty its friendly banter!

I don’t think you understood me correctly. There have been a lot of times where people get in stupid arguments on this site and resort to calling each other homos and other slurs. I am just pointing out that this is not one of those times!
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

Here is another argument:

If you put a minimum price on work like $200 for a shirt design couldn’t you in theory be putting yourself on a ceiling for how high work should be priced out. I mean it’s true that some people are under charging but alot of fools are over charging as well. If we are going to put minimum thresh holds for clients there needs to be maximum thresholds on design work as well.
Eternyl said over 2 years ago

in a different industry....alot of people do spec work for would never do the same....

I wonder if I can get 5 to 10 different bands to each perform an entire spec concert at a bash I’m throwing this summer.

...and then only pay the one I like, since I’m not familiar entirely with their work, and not sure how the end concert will really end up until I see the work.. and I really want to get the most for my money.

seems like a win/win to me...at least the 9 other bands will get experience, and get their name out there.

might just work.
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

why can’t the client pay an hourly fee for the designer doing spec work, and if they actually like the design, pay the full price. that way the artist gets at least something for their time.
Eternyl said over 2 years ago

Randomentity said: why can’t the client pay an hourly fee for the designer doing spec work, and if they actually like the design, pay the full price. that way the artist gets at least something for their time.

it would be paid work then, and not spec, that would be perfect.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Randomentity said: why can’t the client pay an hourly fee for the designer doing spec work, and if they actually like the design, pay the full price. that way the artist gets at least something for their time.

the problem with that is usually there are usually several designers doing the spec work. So instead of paying 1 designer your paying 5, which defeats the purpose of doing spec work.
ZiplokFF5 said over 2 years ago

Ray,

I hear you man but I think a majority of your frustration comes from uneducated clients and I think thats the nature of the beast... It’s easy to get some you band dude or some intern at a label or mgmt company to call you and want a design for $75 bucks. but thats what you guys get paid for to be educated for them. It sucks but the revolving door will always be people want it for less, they want more then they deserve, and its always a short time line.

I have nothing but respect for you dude we will work together in the future!
not under spec I promise... Disregard the email i sent to you earlier....
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said:
Randomentity said: why can’t the client pay an hourly fee for the designer doing spec work, and if they actually like the design, pay the full price. that way the artist gets at least something for their time.

the problem with that is usually there are usually several designers doing the spec work. So instead of paying 1 designer your paying 5, which defeats the purpose of doing spec work.

so the problem is that clients are a bunch of cheapasses. got it.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: Not really, Zip. It’s supply and demand. Lets say COOP gets 10K for a painting. There are people who want to pay that. Hell, I would if I could afford it. Why should he have to have a maximum fee? Should he be judged by the same standards as I? Or Jon? No. That really doesn’t make sense to me.

I think thats one of the problems with the design world, it doesn’t have the 'cache' of the art world because there are so many people out there who claim to be designers. Not many people will just go I want a rushing, or a derek deal. All they say is I want something that looks like this and sends a mock up instead of going to that designer who did it.

I think its getting better but still has a long way to go. Emptee’s is sure helping though to get these designers work based on people seeking them out.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

i blame myspace
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: i blame myspace

+ a billion
dvck said over 2 years ago

i got to say this is greatly helpful, im just starting out, finishing school, and to be able to 'listen' to this is pretty ace, i have to agree with Frenden and Killer Wombat here.
i know im starting out and cant charge tons, or what i will eventually, but it is frustrating when people want things done for almost nothing, its crazy, ill pass on the cheapskate who wont shell out the cash for what they’re getting.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

... and im spent. This was a good ass thread... time to go hit up the gym.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said:
Ray Frenden said: Not really, Zip. It’s supply and demand. Lets say COOP gets 10K for a painting. There are people who want to pay that. Hell, I would if I could afford it. Why should he have to have a maximum fee? Should he be judged by the same standards as I? Or Jon? No. That really doesn’t make sense to me.

I think thats one of the problems with the design world, it doesn’t have the 'cache' of the art world because there are so many people out there who claim to be designers. Not many people will just go I want a rushing, or a derek deal. All they say is I want something that looks like this and sends a mock up instead of going to that designer who did it.

I think its getting better but still has a long way to go. Emptee’s is sure helping though to get these designers work based on people seeking them out.

As designers, I think we should all strive to become true artists. That way clients come to us for our work/our style, wouldn’t it be cool to hear "I want a Frenden" or a "I want a Wombat". I’m sure Ray is at that point already because you know his style and I’m sure there’s lots of clients who want that style.

Interestingly enough, I just spoke to a client who wanted SI SCOTT (http://www.siscottstudio.com/) to do some stuff for his clothing line and realized the dude charges $5,000-$8,000 for his work!! nice!!
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: I tend to get sought out for doing my thing, yeah. I have doubled my rates over the last year or so and still have a full bill of work. So I guess things are working out. I intend to raise my prices again soon. Just like gas, everything gets more expensive. Gotta pay my bills. One thing: how you position yourself is how other people treat you. I’m saying this totally independent of the Spec discussion.

That’s my goal Ray! To get sought out for doing my thing. The artists who truly blaze their own trail, having their own style seem to be the most successful ones. So how’d you realize that your style is what you love doing? I find it difficult though because my influences are so eclectic. I’ve had some success doing my style of calligraphy/writing (http://www.behance.net/Gallery/Calligraphy--Handstyles--Typography/93122)
Some clients ask me particularly to do something like that. But I don’t see myself just doing something like that forever. You know what I mean?
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: This is really sweet, btw, Collision: I’d like to see even more of that.

Haha thanks Ray means a lot! You should see how i do it too, no cintiqs, no pen and tablet, just a good 'ol crappy mouse and the calligraphy brush on illustrator. =)
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

the way business is conducted in this industry is way different from what im used to in the agency realm. A lot of jobs are so quick and loose that a good deal of faith and integrity is relied upon to make these transactions happen. It makes the whole system very amateuristic and flimsy. Ideally id love to charge deposits and have contracts for each job, but to keep the wheels good and greased i usually forgo these things. Quite recently ive started finding that its hard to even know how many people the client is in contact with, and whether or not they actually are spec’ing out lots of artists at the same time. In one situation several months ago it turned out that upwards of 7 other designers where contacted on a job with no knowledge of each others involvement. The client was very much capitalizing on a broken system and milking the designers talents for all it was worth. Its these situations that infuriate me the most. I can understand a client wanting variety, but creating these designer corals is disgusting. I think if you’re going to contract several artists, clients need to make informed decisions about who they are contacting and at least concede to paying nominal submission fees. It only seems fair to me.
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

ok, I’ve read most of this post since my last comment ... it’s getting long. but something I can see here is:

1. Spec work sucks, so far, it hasn’t worked for me once, BUT reselling the designs that were turned down has made me a lot of money.

2. If you do spec, the best way not to work for free is to NEVER do spec work on a text only design, illustrations can be resold with a different tag on them, text has to be completely redrawn. I only do spec this way so if I get the job, cool, if not, I’ll probably make double what I was offered in the first place.

3. I’m sooo tired of being lowballed ... I’d say 75% of the people that email me about pricing either don’t email me back after I tell them, or tell me "so and so" will do it for $100 or less ...

4. Ray Frenden is the coolest guy on this entire planet, I’m super happy that this community has him here to point us all in the right direction, this guy is smart as hell, we need to pay attention.

5. The design world should not be a competition, everyone has different styles. We should all push eachother to be better artists as well as recommending eachother to clients as other options for what they need. the goal should be that what a client bases their search for potential designers on is there ability, not their price.

6. I wanted to show you guys low balling in action, I wanted to do some work for this guy, then I noticed what he was selling his own work for ...

(copy/pasted from another thread)
AdolfJackson said: each will sell for 50 bucks and ill give all 3 for 120 merickgt1313@hotmail.com

WTF?!?!?!
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

derekdeal said: the way business is conducted in this industry is way different from what im used to in the agency realm. A lot of jobs are so quick and loose that a good deal of faith and integrity is relied upon to make these transactions happen. It makes the whole system very amateuristic and flimsy. Ideally id love to charge deposits and have contracts for each job, but to keep the wheels good and greased i usually forgo these things. Quite recently ive started finding that its hard to even know how many people the client is in contact with, and whether or not they actually are spec’ing out lots of artists at the same time. In one situation several months ago it turned out that upwards of 7 other designers where contacted on a job with no knowledge of each others involvement. The client was very much capitalizing on a broken system and milking the designers talents for all it was worth. Its these situations that infuriate me the most. I can understand a client wanting variety, but creating these designer corals is disgusting. I think if you’re going to contract several artists, clients need to make informed decisions about who they are contacting and at least concede to paying nominal submission fees. It only seems fair to me.

INRI clothing did that same EXACT thing to me and heavyprints ... little did they know I talk to the guy all the time and we happened to bring up our current client in a conversation .... we just decided to make a little competition out of it ... he ended up winning just based on what the band liked better ... but it still pissed me off that I wasn’t told there was another designer on the job, especially because of the crazy awkward situation it created between me and someone i consider a friend.
jimiyo said over 2 years ago

sittingduck said:
derekdeal said: the way business is conducted in this industry is way different from what im used to in the agency realm. A lot of jobs are so quick and loose that a good deal of faith and integrity is relied upon to make these transactions happen. It makes the whole system very amateuristic and flimsy. Ideally id love to charge deposits and have contracts for each job, but to keep the wheels good and greased i usually forgo these things. Quite recently ive started finding that its hard to even know how many people the client is in contact with, and whether or not they actually are spec’ing out lots of artists at the same time. In one situation several months ago it turned out that upwards of 7 other designers where contacted on a job with no knowledge of each others involvement. The client was very much capitalizing on a broken system and milking the designers talents for all it was worth. Its these situations that infuriate me the most. I can understand a client wanting variety, but creating these designer corals is disgusting. I think if you’re going to contract several artists, clients need to make informed decisions about who they are contacting and at least concede to paying nominal submission fees. It only seems fair to me.

INRI clothing...

funny guys. they dont exude that INRI vibe,which means Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews . which makes me distrust them more.
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

jimiyo said:
sittingduck said:
derekdeal said: the way business is conducted in this industry is way different from what im used to in the agency realm. A lot of jobs are so quick and loose that a good deal of faith and integrity is relied upon to make these transactions happen. It makes the whole system very amateuristic and flimsy. Ideally id love to charge deposits and have contracts for each job, but to keep the wheels good and greased i usually forgo these things. Quite recently ive started finding that its hard to even know how many people the client is in contact with, and whether or not they actually are spec’ing out lots of artists at the same time. In one situation several months ago it turned out that upwards of 7 other designers where contacted on a job with no knowledge of each others involvement. The client was very much capitalizing on a broken system and milking the designers talents for all it was worth. Its these situations that infuriate me the most. I can understand a client wanting variety, but creating these designer corals is disgusting. I think if you’re going to contract several artists, clients need to make informed decisions about who they are contacting and at least concede to paying nominal submission fees. It only seems fair to me.

INRI clothing...

funny guys. they dont exude that INRI vibe,which means Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews . which makes me distrust them more.

im actually waiting for a reply to a bid. offer was $200, i quoted $350.

350 x 30% taxes = $245
take out health insurance
equipment depreciation, etc etc.

you cant survive on less. figure

350 x 3 a week. if you can crunch out more than 3 a week with good quality, kudos. = 55K yearly - taxes, insurance, etc =

entry level designer income. whack.

coulda sworn i told everyone to avoid them a few months ago ... they STILL contact me for work ....
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

its not really a big issue if two designers are working on the same job, more than 3 is suspicious because you know your odds of getting work approved lessens, if only for the client to have a better variety.

and SD, 55 is NOT an entry level salary, i think most designers would be deluded to think they can make that off the bat.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

derekdeal said:and SD, 55 is NOT an entry level salary, i think most designers would be deluded to think they can make that off the bat.

totally! Entry level design positions are like 24 - 32k
rich.a said over 2 years ago

at the end of the day is it all not personal choice

and aslong as you respect yourself and your client

and are happy with the income you are getting isn’t that all that matters?
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said: at the end of the day is it all not personal choice and aslong as you respect yourself and your client and are happy with the income you are getting isn’t that all that matters?

not when I have to battle with cheap clients for work.

the point isn’t 'you need to stop charging so little', the point is 'everyone needs to start charging what they are worth, and as a result, we will all benefit.'

-------------------

and i don’t buy that 'well cheap designs are all i can afford' argument. just because you want to sell tees, but can’t afford my design doesn’t mean that myself or anyone else owes it to your business ambitions to devalue our work. thats really frustrating. if you want amazing work for your line, spend an extra month saving up some money and pay fair price for an insane tee design. it’ll be worth it.

hmph.
Tender Branson said over 2 years ago

At my agency when work is requested we consider it a labor request and charge per hour. Just like an electrician would charge you for any labor that he does, so do we.

The biggest problem with 'spec' work that we run into is not only are we usually wasting our time but that’s when we have clients that will take our design ideas to someone else who will do a cheap (horrible) re-creation of the original. And unless you want to spend a lot of time in court battling copyright and usually losing.. it’s really not worth it.

If you have a solid enough portfolio with a range of design work the people coming to you asking for designs will know what type of work you do and they can expect from you. If they don’t, then they’re not worth working with anyhow.
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

derekdeal said: its not really a big issue if two designers are working on the same job, more than 3 is suspicious because you know your odds of getting work approved lessens, if only for the client to have a better variety. and SD, 55 is NOT an entry level salary, i think most designers would be deluded to think they can make that off the bat.

wait wait wait .... when did I say I make 55k a year? haha ... that was what jimiyo said and I quoted him, then he edited his post ... fuck if I made that I sure as hell wouldn’t be paying rent at this shitty apartment anymore!

Also, it wasn’t the fact that there was one other artist on the project that pissed me off, it was the fact that they acted as if I was exclusive to that project, then I found out my good buddy heavyprints is doing the same one ... I don’t like to be fucking lied to ... that’s unprofessional in every sense of the word.
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

gotcha, sorry for the misquote
jimiyo said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said:
derekdeal said:and SD, 55 is NOT an entry level salary, i think most designers would be deluded to think they can make that off the bat.

totally! Entry level design positions are like 24 - 32k

i was saying to make an entry level position salary while freelancing after all health, taxes, etc are taken out, youd have to make approx. 55k freelancing.

salaried, i started many years ago at 30k plus commission, and ended up around 40-45K depending on commission within a couple years. designing for a regular apparel company doesnt pay much. even the big company in town who prints humongoid quantity of mass market stuff, the main guy there didnt get but 50-55 and he’d been there for close to 20 years.

sorry i edited. it seemed superfluous and unexplained.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Its all good duder, I got what you were saying. I’m not a huge fan of numbers and saying how much you make but I started out at a 55k+ a year job out of college so it is possible for people to do that, just very very hard, many of the other people I graduated with started out around 25k... I only lasted about a year until I ended up quitting to pursue synapse. Its hard as hell sometimes some months but I love being able to work for our own company. Hence why this spec work was a big issue for me... makes my job harder when everyone is saying they will do it for $100 or if your design wins you get paid.

i hope I dont come of arrogant in this little tid bit. Hence why I hate naming how much people make. Just wanted to kinda let other designers / coders know that if you work hard you can start out with a very nice salary.
jimiyo said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: Its all good duder, I got what you were saying. I’m not a huge fan of numbers and saying how much you make but I started out at a job 55k+ a year job out of college so it is possible for people to do that, just very very hard, many of the other people I graduated with started out around 25k... I only lasted about a year until I ended up quitting to pursue synapse. Its hard as hell sometimes some months but I love being able to work for our own company. Hence why this spec work was a big issue for me... makes my job harder when everyone is saying they will do it for $100 or if your design wins you get paid.

Word. Yeah, for $100, it’d be tough to make a living. Even if you didnt pay taxes and just went under the table, at $100 a pop, even $200

a modest 24,000 / 200 = 120 designs.
a design every three days.
still a tough road, considering you’d have to snag freelance gigs to supply you with enough work to fulfil that order.

as far as contest spec, aye. i know what you are saying about that. i do think its a risky road for most. personally, i guess i dont mind it because ive put myself in the position of not having to worry about money for the rest of the year so if i win great, if i dont win, dont matter. its mainly about doing art i want to do. by the years end, if i continue on track, ill have about 25 solid, as best as i can designs, all art directed by me. so when people look at my portfolio, its me that they are seeing, not a client requested design. i also think contests are a good way to get your name out there. especially if you hit big time like threadless, which i have yet to do.

BTW. wow. i had never been to your site. that bird shooting thing is gonna keep me entertained for hours if i ever get drunk.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Ah, I meant the "contest" thing as being spec work... how when a client asks several designers and picks one. I love contests, I need to enter some here and there and get on that boat with some of the extra designs laying around.

And yeah, Iove that splash page but sadly its been up for far too long. I am trying to get a little website together for synapse that should go up next week sometime... dont worry though, you will be able to shoot birds still. I might even add some noise and blood.
MichaelLoSauro said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: And yeah, Iove that splash page but sadly its been up for far too long. I am trying to get a little website together for synapse that should go up next week sometime... dont worry though, you will be able to shoot birds still. I might even add some noise and blood.

Please do. I really want to see some more of Synapse’s portfolio, and although shooting the birds is fun, I’m really interested in seeing a full on site. Maybe even add a whole 'Games' section for the birds and anything else you put together?
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

its nothing too amazing so don’t get your hopes too high, haha. We just need to get something up so I am trying to work on it on the minutes between projects.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: its nothing too amazing so don’t get your hopes too high, haha. We just need to get something up so I am trying to work on it on the minutes between projects.

how are you guys showing potential clients your previous work? just curious.
justinryan said over 2 years ago

For the record, I’ve seen the new synapse portfolio and it is off the hook!
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

justinryan said: For the record, I’ve seen the new synapse portfolio and it is off the hook!

so the mythical beast DOES exist!
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

haha... we use a strange combination of zombie slime, man of the house style rain dances, and the power of hypno-toad to lure new clients in. I dunno, we have such a nice client base and a good repose with all of them that a good majority of our work is just continuing the relationship. Kinda once your in with the label your in.

... and now I guess I really have to go work on it.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

a killer wombat said: haha... we use a strange combination of zombie slime, man of the house style rain dances, and the power of hypno-toad to lure new clients in. ... and now I guess I really have to go work on it.

amazing. we’ve been doing all of that, except using a regular toad in lieu of hypno-toad. no wonder business is down!
Geoff May said over 2 years ago

ZiplokFF5 said: I disagree with the comment at the top and the comment about spec work… I buy 5 to 10 shirt designs per band per quarter and I have 4 bands… I can’t simply afford to pay $150 to $300 for each design in advance with out knowing what I really want or if my trusted designers will produce what I want. I also can’t go back to the same designer every time to keep things fresh. Doing spec work for a manager could give a rising graphic designer a chance to get noticed and give them great exposure, which could put them in a position to make up the difference on other clients that are motivated by the work they have seen from past work. I also know that there are a billion people that call themselves designers and spec is a great way to weed the good from the bad. Spec work can be done right when a client pays good for the shirts they pick up. A client never reveals when they get a deal on a shirt and you focus on building a returning client relationship. After all don’t relationships still matter and as much as designers talk so do managers. Great pricing and spec could be a win win for client and designer alike.

That’s why you contact a designer who you know has a good track record and whose work you like. That way you know that the money will be well spent.

I charge half up front and half upon completion, unless it’s a client I’ve established a relationship with. I provided concept sketches along the way so the client gets EXACTLY what they want. In the end, they’re happy and I’m happy.

Admittedly, I have done spec work but have pretty much all but stopped doing it now. It’s not worth my time. I think I have a strong enough portfolio of work to show my worth.
jfinley said over 2 years ago

I thought I’d add my two cents.

Most of the designers on emptees are freelancers - meaning they pretty much have one person to look out for. At Go Media, we are trying to build a company that allows all of its employees to live a satisfying life doing what they love.

We started at ground zero like everyone else. I was charging $200 for a website (including hosting) back in 2003. And I think I was charging $20 for a t-shirt design when I started.

When you start factoring in taxes, bills, payroll, and even luxuries such as medical insurance for everyone, dental, vision, and hopefully some paid time off - the overhead gets big. But it’s all part of building a team as opposed to running solo.

Now Go Media charges $100/hour for design work. Which is still low compared to other "firms" that we know. But it’s much more than most of the designers on Emptees are charging. We still have a commitment to quality and we’re all trying to get better every day. But Emptees has been both good and bad for us. Good because people are seeking us out by name and are looking for our style.

Bad because it’s a really convenient site for clients to come and find cheap designers. I have been emailed a handful of times from clients who forgot to change the name of who they were addressing. It would happen to be a fellow empteer whose work I think is also really good. I wrote back and then never heard from them again. Then I’d see shirts go up on Emptees in the next week or two from several different designers for the same project. Just makes me curious.

And I hate losing jobs for bands I want to work for because of price. I find myself cutting discounts and deals about 80% of the time. I am also against spec work, but its a sad fact that when you’re hungry, you do what you can to get the work. It also depends on if I’m seeking the band out or they band is seeking me out. If I am seeking the band and they aren’t even looking for my design work, I’m more inclined to discount it.

Ray, I like your stance on this. Stay strong.
Oliver said over 2 years ago

Wow, I just read this entire thread. So many valid points across the board. I don’t want to ramble too long but I’d say the overall problem that we have is that the TALENTED people do not have the upper hand in the finances of a design project. We are the mercy of the client’s "budget." I use the term budget loosely because it seems to me like a lot of companies, especially merch companies, have the budget to pay the designers the proper rates, but don’t in order to further increase the profit.

I don’t want to repeat what Ray, AJ, and some of the others have said about dropping the rates, but think if you did that in another industry? Would you go into a dentist’s office and tell the dentist that "I’ll pay you 200-275 dollars to replace my front tooth?" "Oh, I guess this tooth is worth only 200, here you go."
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

Oliver said: Wow, I just read this entire thread. So many valid points across the board. I don’t want to ramble too long but I’d say the overall problem that we have is that the TALENTED people do not have the upper hand in the finances of a design project. We are the mercy of the client’s "budget." I use the term budget loosely because it seems to me like a lot of companies, especially merch companies, have the budget to pay the designers the proper rates, but don’t in order to further increase the profit. I don’t want to repeat what Ray, AJ, and some of the others have said about dropping the rates, but think if you did that in another industry? Would you go into a dentist’s office and tell the dentist that "I’ll pay you 200-275 dollars to replace my front tooth?" "Oh, I guess this tooth is worth only 200, here you go."

mmmhm. being at the mercy of the client’s budget is awful. like I was saying...just because you, the client, only have X amount of dollars to spend on a design, doesn’t mean the design community owes it to you to devalue their services...just so you can hurry up and get your shirt out there to make some money.

part of the problem is the 'i want what i want and i want it now' mentality.

to compare it to personal finance - if you want a $4000 plasma tv, you don’t go into Best Buy and say 'hey, I can only spend $200 bucks, so you’ll have to give me the TV for that'

instead you start tucking money away in your savings account, and save up for it little by little until you can afford it.

I wish clients would have the sense to do THAT, instead of demanding designers discount themselves to fit into their budgets.

we, as designers, are the ones who SHOULD have the upper hand, as we are the skilled tradesmen who actually CREATE...but b/c of others devaluing themselves, we’re put in the position of 'work cheap for us or go away'
Oliver said over 2 years ago

explodingtoes said:
Oliver said: Wow, I just read this entire thread. So many valid points across the board. I don’t want to ramble too long but I’d say the overall problem that we have is that the TALENTED people do not have the upper hand in the finances of a design project. We are the mercy of the client’s "budget." I use the term budget loosely because it seems to me like a lot of companies, especially merch companies, have the budget to pay the designers the proper rates, but don’t in order to further increase the profit. I don’t want to repeat what Ray, AJ, and some of the others have said about dropping the rates, but think if you did that in another industry? Would you go into a dentist’s office and tell the dentist that "I’ll pay you 200-275 dollars to replace my front tooth?" "Oh, I guess this tooth is worth only 200, here you go."

mmmhm. being at the mercy of the client’s budget is awful. like I was saying...just because you, the client, only have X amount of dollars to spend on a design, doesn’t mean the design community owes it to you to devalue their services...just so you can hurry up and get your shirt out there to make some money.

part of the problem is the 'i want what i want and i want it now' mentality.

to compare it to personal finance - if you want a $4000 plasma tv, you don’t go into Best Buy and say 'hey, I can only spend $200 bucks, so you’ll have to give me the TV for that'

instead you start tucking money away in your savings account, and save up for it little by little until you can afford it.

I wish clients would have the sense to do THAT, instead of demanding designers discount themselves to fit into their budgets.

we, as designers, are the ones who SHOULD have the upper hand, as we are the skilled tradesmen who actually CREATE...but b/c of others devaluing themselves, we’re put in the position of 'work cheap for us or go away'

So we should start telling these clients that if they can’t treat us properly than they should move on. Hopefully when they do move onto someone else they will find the results to be subpar.
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

what is 'spec' work?
quakerninja said over 2 years ago

Is it time to move this to resources yet, theres some good info here.
Anyway...Freelancing leaves me at the mercy of fate basically, Theres nothing I can do to get money back if I get ripped, theres no union (that I know of) Lawyers are damn near useless cuz the laws are fucked. Its work that I think needs to be done, without graphics the world would be a dull blank place. (except for nature) I feel like a dog under the table picking up scrapes, but at least I Like what I do. There are other ways to make money, non of them are 100% easy.
justinryan said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said:Often, after turning an offer down, suddenly the budget grows significantly.

Absolutely. Never give in too easy with a client because, chances are they are giving you a number much lower than what they are actually capable and eventually willing to pay.
GhostmakerAZ said over 2 years ago

Oliver said: So we should start telling these clients that if they can’t treat us properly than they should move on. Hopefully when they do move onto someone else they will find the results to be subpar.

You should move on to making your band tour because it’s way better than the hardcore bands touring right now.
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

the exchange rate is a factor too.

to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment:

a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25.

thats $50!!

so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece.....

possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees...

p.s. really, what is 'spec' work?
Tender Branson said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: the exchange rate is a factor too. to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment: a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25. thats $50!! so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece..... possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees... p.s. really, what is 'spec' work?

"Spec work is defined as producing a piece for a potential client with no guarantee that your work will be chosen and/or paid for." - no-spec.com
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

(i love this thread)
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

i want to quit.
Geoff May said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: the exchange rate is a factor too. to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment: a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25. thats $50!! so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece..... possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees... p.s. really, what is 'spec' work?

Speculative
rich.a said over 2 years ago

its all about building a rep god machine do enough speculative work and you will get about people will recognise your style

then they will approach you as they want something in your style

but until you reach that point i really dont see a way round this to get your foot in the door its ok for the renound designers to casually say no speculative as they can guarantee an income from other clients

most young people cannot

the onyl thing i try to do with spec work is keep it to the style they want bunt never do it totally tailored to that project worst comes to worst you can reuse or recycle elements of the design
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Godmachine... your work already commands the respect it deserves. You shouldn’t have a hard time working directly for clients. The best way to get around doing spec work is to have a good portfolio. Do samples and fun projects and the people can see what your about.

@heros, young people can get around this. I am a young guy and the way I did it was like I just mentioned. If you have a good portfolio that speaks volumes about it and will lure clients. And it never hurts to get a job working for a company that will let you design, the problem is no one wants to work for anyone anymore, every thinks they can start up their company and thats all there is too it. Working for a company gets you the exposure, knowledge of how things work, and a steady income without really having to do spec work.

To me I just see it as a lot of people want go from step A to Z without working their way through. They have illustrator and the internet, what else is there too it?
Tender Branson said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: oh shit- im new to all this and i get this all the time- its frustrating as hell....isnt this what all people do anyway- this is all the work i’ve had, some of this stuff has made me want to go back to brick laying, ive been driven close to tears with some of this stuff. bands ask me to do this all the time so. i should tell them to pay up front? what about them bands..and labels: 'hey there can you sub a piece to see if the band likes it'- i spent 3 dyas on a recent piece i subbed to a band over here in the uk and they turned it down...i nearly quit drawing for ever!! all i ever do is 'spec' work in that case and it makes me want to cry- its no fun at all- in fact its making me want to quit! but they cant pay you for a piece they havent seen yet can they? this is all very confusing- anyone fancy being my agent?

We run into this problem all of the time. Granted we don’t work with bands that often but it’s all relative.

After years of running into 'spec' problems, clients that don’t pay and just shitty clients all around I think we’ve finally managed to come up with a solution that has worked so far.

Instead of making our clients pay up front for a set price (because not every job is the same) we have them sign a labor request form, stating that they are requesting labor from our company at $____ per hour (this varies depending on the client). They can cancel at any time but they have to pay for the amount of time we’ve spent. Most of them put a cap on how much they’d like to spend for the initial labor and revisions so we don’t over/under shoot a design.

So far this has been a win/win situation for ourselves and clients.
alrightok said over 2 years ago

^ otherwise known as a 'kill fee' for a smaller project like a tee. I try to institute this whenever possible. like everyone has said before if they’re a good client (the kind you’d want to start a long term work relationship with..) they’ll at least consider it.
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

has this ever happened to you guys: a fellow designer contacts your client and bad mouths you so the client drops you for no other reason other than some one who must only be bitter as hell has gone out of their way to do this to you.

some people are just cruel and cannot be trusted.
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: has this ever happened to you guys: a fellow designer contacts your client and bad mouths you so the client drops you for no other reason other than some one who must only be bitter as hell has gone out of their way to do this to you. some people are just cruel and cannot be trusted.

no, feel free to email the name of said designer
herman said over 2 years ago

I’m cool with "Spec" works, as long as you don’t half-ass on it. If the client doesn’t want it, you can always use it for other clients or personal projects.

Just be confident on your designs even if it doesn’t get chosen by clients. Sooner or later, someone will knock your door asking for it.

My "More Colors In A Grey World" was denied by 2 clients. I knew the design was good, so I put it on DBH. Then it got me SOTW.
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

derekdeal said:
Godmachine said: has this ever happened to you guys: a fellow designer contacts your client and bad mouths you so the client drops you for no other reason other than some one who must only be bitter as hell has gone out of their way to do this to you. some people are just cruel and cannot be trusted.

no, feel free to email the name of said designer

I’m gonna see if he has the balls to 'fess up here. I havent got it in me to name names or call people out.
a killer wombat said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said:
derekdeal said:
Godmachine said: has this ever happened to you guys: a fellow designer contacts your client and bad mouths you so the client drops you for no other reason other than some one who must only be bitter as hell has gone out of their way to do this to you. some people are just cruel and cannot be trusted.

no, feel free to email the name of said designer

I’m gonna see if he has the balls to 'fess up here. I havent got it in me to name names or call people out.

it was me... I just used the interview as a way to make you feel comfortable while I stole the clients out from under you. Not really, im curious too. I had someone do it once right out of college, ended up being a dude I went to school with. Then the client ended up coming back to me cause he fucked up the whole project.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: Often, after turning an offer down, suddenly the budget grows significantly.

Happened to me a couple times. It’s the best feeling when a client comes back to you and tells you "we’ve increased our budget!"

Godmachine said: the exchange rate is a factor too. to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment: a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25. thats $50!! so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece..... possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees...

Dude in no way should you be charging 100 for a tee design!!!
jfinley said over 2 years ago

collisiontheory said:
Ray Frenden said: Often, after turning an offer down, suddenly the budget grows significantly.

Happened to me a couple times. It’s the best feeling when a client comes back to you and tells you "we’ve increased our budget!"

Godmachine said: the exchange rate is a factor too. to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment: a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25. thats $50!! so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece..... possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees...

Dude in no way should you be charging 100 for a tee design!!!

Godmachine should charge $300-800 for design. I know he’s undercharging just by the sheer volume of tees he’s submitting! I’m like "That dude must be doing em cheap cause there’s no other way!"

You’re going to hear the more established designers and firms fighting against spec work because they’re mostly the ones affected. The kid who charges $100 a tee or less and gets all the jobs isn’t complaining one bit. But they’ll eventually get burned on some jobs, realize they’re overworked and underpaid and then raise their rates. Music industry clients will most likely leave that designer and find the next "up and comer."
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

jfinley said:
collisiontheory said:
Ray Frenden said: Often, after turning an offer down, suddenly the budget grows significantly.

Happened to me a couple times. It’s the best feeling when a client comes back to you and tells you "we’ve increased our budget!"

Godmachine said: the exchange rate is a factor too. to give you guys a clue of what it costs to live over here at the moment: a Famous Stars and Straps tee can cost up to £25. thats $50!! so when someone offers me $100 to do a piece..... possibly 2 days work for the cost of two tees...

Dude in no way should you be charging 100 for a tee design!!!

Godmachine should charge $300-800 for design. I know he’s undercharging just by the sheer volume of tees he’s submitting! I’m like "That dude must be doing em cheap cause there’s no other way!"

You’re going to hear the more established designers and firms fighting against spec work because they’re mostly the ones affected. The kid who charges $100 a tee or less and gets all the jobs isn’t complaining one bit. But they’ll eventually get burned on some jobs, realize they’re overworked and underpaid and then raise their rates. Music industry clients will most likely leave that designer and find the next "up and comer."

Shyeah! If i had drawing skills like that i’d charge at least $500! hehe
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

i was charging $100 when i first got here- but after email convesations with some cool dudes on here- and the sheer volume of work I was getting- I have since upped my prices- and since now it takes me longer to produce stuff- I’m turning down a lot of work- I was saying that some people should be aware of how expensive it is over here/how poor you are overe there (depends on yr outlook).

if you guys can find anyone willing to pay that much- send em this way- this is why im totally disheartened- all i get is how much i should be charging yet no one ever offers that much- and i need to eat so i take the jobs.

if you want to tell me how much i should charge- hows about you find me some work?

does that sound fair?
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: i was charging $100 when i first got here- but after email convesations with some cool dudes on here- and the sheer volume of work I was getting- I have since upped my prices- and since now it takes me longer to produce stuff- I’m turning down a lot of work- I was saying that some people should be aware of how expensive it is over here/how poor you are overe there (depends on yr outlook). if you guys can find anyone willing to pay that much- send em this way- this is why im totally disheartened- all i get is how much i should be charging yet no one ever offers that much- and i need to eat so i take the jobs. if you want to tell me how much i should charge- hows about you find me some work? does that sound fair?

amen, i havent come across any clients with pockets that deep yet.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

Godmachine said: i was charging $100 when i first got here- but after email convesations with some cool dudes on here- and the sheer volume of work I was getting- I have since upped my prices- and since now it takes me longer to produce stuff- I’m turning down a lot of work- I was saying that some people should be aware of how expensive it is over here/how poor you are overe there (depends on yr outlook). if you guys can find anyone willing to pay that much- send em this way- this is why im totally disheartened- all i get is how much i should be charging yet no one ever offers that much- and i need to eat so i take the jobs. if you want to tell me how much i should charge- hows about you find me some work? does that sound fair?

In the band/music industry I don’t think you’ll find anyone willing to pay that much. Guys like Fueled by Ramen pay around $200-250. Manhead Merch pays 125-325. I’ve spoken to Bravado and they pay around $300-400 and they have a kill fee of $50! for rejected work.

Outside the music industry I’ve found some who can pay $300-600. $250-$300 seems like an average for a lot of the more established brands. Urban Outfitters can pay around $500 per design.
rich.a said over 2 years ago

collisiontheory said:
Godmachine said: i was charging $100 when i first got here- but after email convesations with some cool dudes on here- and the sheer volume of work I was getting- I have since upped my prices- and since now it takes me longer to produce stuff- I’m turning down a lot of work- I was saying that some people should be aware of how expensive it is over here/how poor you are overe there (depends on yr outlook). if you guys can find anyone willing to pay that much- send em this way- this is why im totally disheartened- all i get is how much i should be charging yet no one ever offers that much- and i need to eat so i take the jobs. if you want to tell me how much i should charge- hows about you find me some work? does that sound fair?

In the band/music industry I don’t think you’ll find anyone willing to pay that much. Guys like Fueled by Ramen pay around $200-250. Manhead Merch pays 125-325. I’ve spoken to Bravado and they pay around $300-400 and they have a kill fee of $50! for rejected work.

Outside the music industry I’ve found some who can pay $300-600. $250-$300 seems like an average for a lot of the more established brands. Urban Outfitters can pay around $500 per design.

taking all that into consideration and still saying schyea id charge 500 kind of tips him over all of there budgets? apart from one
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

heroes1985 said:
collisiontheory said:
Godmachine said: i was charging $100 when i first got here- but after email convesations with some cool dudes on here- and the sheer volume of work I was getting- I have since upped my prices- and since now it takes me longer to produce stuff- I’m turning down a lot of work- I was saying that some people should be aware of how expensive it is over here/how poor you are overe there (depends on yr outlook). if you guys can find anyone willing to pay that much- send em this way- this is why im totally disheartened- all i get is how much i should be charging yet no one ever offers that much- and i need to eat so i take the jobs. if you want to tell me how much i should charge- hows about you find me some work? does that sound fair?

In the band/music industry I don’t think you’ll find anyone willing to pay that much. Guys like Fueled by Ramen pay around $200-250. Manhead Merch pays 125-325. I’ve spoken to Bravado and they pay around $300-400 and they have a kill fee of $50! for rejected work.

Outside the music industry I’ve found some who can pay $300-600. $250-$300 seems like an average for a lot of the more established brands. Urban Outfitters can pay around $500 per design.

taking all that into consideration and still saying schyea id charge 500 kind of tips him over all of there budgets? apart from one

The 'schyea $500' comment, a little exaggerated, but it just means godmachine can charge that much with his talent. Realistically, just like what finley said, around $300-800. It’s good to know he’s upped his prices though because it makes everyone else look bad if he didn’t! hehe
jfinley said over 2 years ago

I remember being in the running for a job to do some new shirts for Air Jordan. I was told, "I know it’s not much, it’s the apparel industry. They only pay $2500 per design." Are you kidding? Whoever told me this never worked in this scene!
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

jfinley said: I remember being in the running for a job to do some new shirts for Air Jordan. I was told, "I know it’s not much, it’s the apparel industry. They only pay $2500 per design." Are you kidding? Whoever told me this never worked in this scene!

Dude you mentioned this before! SO what happened to that?? That’s crazy nuts man that would be a dream job!
Geoff May said over 2 years ago

I’ve decided to work for free. Sure, the downside is that I’m not making any money, but the upside is that I have a HUGE client list.

I might eventually start paying companies to design for them.
collisiontheory said over 2 years ago

justgeoff said: I’ve decided to work for free. Sure, the downside is that I’m not making any money, but the upside is that I have a HUGE client list. I might eventually start paying companies to design for them.

Ahahaha! That just might work dude! I’d pay Nike to do some Jordan tees! hehe
derekdeal said over 2 years ago

great, geoff just broke the industry, way to go geoff
Survival said over 2 years ago

jfinley said: I remember being in the running for a job to do some new shirts for Air Jordan. I was told, "I know it’s not much, it’s the apparel industry. They only pay $2500 per design." Are you kidding? Whoever told me this never worked in this scene!

hahaha amazing, the minimum wage in my country (Portugal) is 426 Euros a month...imagine me making that per design...high class! get me mr. nike’s email please!
heavyprints said over 2 years ago

I draw things that I really want to draw and hope someone wants to buy them. How does that fit into all of this? lol

The INRI stuff I competed with SD for was a pretty crappy way to work. I hated knowing that I had beat a friend of mine out of work, or that he would have to do the same to me. I’d rather be payed to do my own style.
jfinley said over 2 years ago

collisiontheory said:
jfinley said: I remember being in the running for a job to do some new shirts for Air Jordan. I was told, "I know it’s not much, it’s the apparel industry. They only pay $2500 per design." Are you kidding? Whoever told me this never worked in this scene!

Dude you mentioned this before! SO what happened to that?? That’s crazy nuts man that would be a dream job!

Well, one of our reps asked us if we wanted the job and that’s what she told us. Hell yes we were interested.

Needless to say, I never heard back from them. I think they were offering the job to a bunch of other studios as well. We just weren’t right for it apparently.
sittingduck said over 2 years ago

heavyprints said: I draw things that I really want to draw and hope someone wants to buy them. How does that fit into all of this? lol The INRI stuff I competed with SD for was a pretty crappy way to work. I hated knowing that I had beat a friend of mine out of work, or that he would have to do the same to me. I’d rather be payed to do my own style.

yea, I hated that feeling too, and I hated them even mroe for pitting us against eachother ... It’s like somebody yelled "MORTAL KOMBAT!" and suddenly I have to kill my friend or die.
explodingtoes said over 2 years ago

sittingduck and heavyprints sitting in a tree...
RikkiB said over 2 years ago

explodingtoes said: sittingduck and heavyprints sitting in a tree...

I’d like to climb that tree too... I draw what I enjoy, and hope to sell them after. It helps that I have another job.
barkone said over 2 years ago

hahaha amazing, the minimum wage in my country (Portugal) is 426 Euros a month...imagine me making that per design...high class! get me mr. nike’s email please!

In Romania the medium sallary is $250 , and the thing in this argue should make count also how much would worth $150 for an USA designer and how much will worth for other countries designers where wages are not the same.And is the same thing in other fields so in the end we will not reinvent the wheel. As long as you thing you are living in a country where democracy have proved the best you should also know what a free market is.Also this is why when i buy a piece of clothing and look at the label all i see are poor countries from Asia or South America or Eastern Europe.Sincerely i am not trying to sell myself cheap in detriment of others but when i make a price i have my own level of values regarding
my status from my own country.

So as a result i make an offer for everyone...who thing i am cheap.If you have projects who overwhelm you , tight deadlines or you feel lazy to do the job drop me an email , i will do it for $150 and you can sell it with $300.(My point is my $150 in Romania worth $300 in USA...so in the end everybody will earn approx. the same).

PS:Explodingtoes i still waiting to sell this to you http://www.emptees.com/tees/4689-my-old-love-skulls and i hope $150 is a good price.If you are not interested anymore at least let me know.
Oliver said over 2 years ago

GhostmakerAZ said:
Oliver said: So we should start telling these clients that if they can’t treat us properly than they should move on. Hopefully when they do move onto someone else they will find the results to be subpar.

You should move on to making your band tour because it’s way better than the hardcore bands touring right now.

We start recording the new full length next weekend. Although that reminds me of what my band would be paying in design fees if I weren’t in it. Woo man, it would be an expensive bill.
heavyprints said over 2 years ago

You’re not making a good impression. lol
Hillman said over 2 years ago

AdolfJackson said: fuck your blog bitch!!!!

yeah dude your really killing it for yourself. Pretty much every comment you make hurts your chances of anything emptee related...The regular members here kind of like to keep the threads duche free and you will continue to have a hard time going at this rate.

Warning, may contain spoilers!ban?
Setup85 said over 2 years ago

Having read this whole thread I have learned more than I ever will anywhere else I think. Thanks guys.

Emptees has been a great learning experience for me so far.
thewebguy said over 2 years ago

capitalism, son!

someone is always undercutting you. deal with it with lower prices, or higher quality.
Randomentity said over 2 years ago

thewebguy said: capitalism, son! someone is always undercutting you. deal with it with lower prices, or higher quality.

and it’s attitudes like that, that make our job so hard.
capitalism blows.
Half FULL said over 2 years ago

I own a small and up & coming t-shirt business and find it hard to get freelance designers to do a design for me.

Perhaps my ideas for shirts just totally suck!

I totally appreciate this is peoples business too and have no problem with paying the rates designers quote, but i only ever get as far as agreeing a price, giving a short brief of what kinda design i would like, the designer says cool yeap i’m up for it and then i never hear from them again!! What am i doing wrong?? If they don’t wanna do my design thats cool, everyone has different taste but i wish they would tell me. I put money aside to pay for these designs, and work on timelines and it sucks when i never hear back.

In total it’s happened around 6 different times now. What is the "right Way" to approach a designer?

Also how much direction do freelance designers like to have on a design? ie what kinda specifics , very detailed or more of a free hand to use your imagination?

Sorry to babble on, any help would be cool.
RikkiB said over 2 years ago

Half a Job Jeans said: I own a small and up & coming t-shirt business and find it hard to get freelance designers to do a design for me. Perhaps my ideas for shirts just totally suck! I totally appreciate this is peoples business too and have no problem with paying the rates designers quote, but i only ever get as far as agreeing a price, giving a short brief of what kinda design i would like, the designer says cool yeap i’m up for it and then i never hear from them again!! What am i doing wrong?? If they don’t wanna do my design thats cool, everyone has different taste but i wish they would tell me. I put money aside to pay for these designs, and work on timelines and it sucks when i never hear back. In total it’s happened around 6 different times now. What is the "right Way" to approach a designer? Also how much direction do freelance designers like to have on a design? ie what kinda specifics , very detailed or more of a free hand to use your imagination? Sorry to babble on, any help would be cool.

I think you’ll have better luck if you check out a bunch of designers' styles and choose an artist which fits with your label based on their style. Leave the rest of the design up to them... you’ll end up with a better result design-wise anyway.
Godmachine said over 2 years ago

Half a Job Jeans said: I own a small and up & coming t-shirt business and find it hard to get freelance designers to do a design for me. Perhaps my ideas for shirts just totally suck! I totally appreciate this is peoples business too and have no problem with paying the rates designers quote, but i only ever get as far as agreeing a price, giving a short brief of what kinda design i would like, the designer says cool yeap i’m up for it and then i never hear from them again!! What am i doing wrong?? If they don’t wanna do my design thats cool, everyone has different taste but i wish they would tell me. I put money aside to pay for these designs, and work on timelines and it sucks when i never hear back. In total it’s happened around 6 different times now. What is the "right Way" to approach a designer? Also how much direction do freelance designers like to have on a design? ie what kinda specifics , very detailed or more of a free hand to use your imagination? Sorry to babble on, any help would be cool.

put your email up.

or email me.
Half FULL said over 2 years ago

sorry added my email :)

& thanks RikkiB
RikkiB said over 2 years ago

Ray Frenden said: Unless you have a solid background in design (web, print, motion -ANYTHING) and have held the title of art director, I’d at least listen to any changes that the designer you hire advocates very carefully. As a rule, I don’t like to take jobs were the subject matter is explicitly dictated. Often times the requests aren’t true to the brand, the audience for the merch, etc. Sometimes you just have to trust the dude(or -ette) you hired.

+1
And Art Director of your own label doesn’t count ;)
Half FULL said over 2 years ago

Thanks for your advice :)

I’ve just got to remember the artists are good not only because of their graphic ability but their imagination too.

Think i need to be brave and not be so controlling over exact specifics of what i want in a design.

Wow this has been really usefull, good to insight from the other side so to say :)
RikkiB said over 2 years ago

Half a Job Jeans said: Thanks for your advice :) I’ve just got to remember the artists are good not only because of their graphic ability but their imagination too. Think i need to be brave and not be so controlling over exact specifics of what i want in a design. Wow this has been really usefull, good to insight from the other side so to say :)

No problem, calls are charged at 5.99/minute, more from payphones.
easyonthecut said about 2 years ago

That thread helped me so much. I just got an offer from a local band to do speculation work, though i don’t know how much other designers they asked.

I guess I’ll do a design i’m still gonna be able to use if not taken. ^^
quakerninja said about 2 years ago

I just ran the numbers with this thing and gosh darn it your right.
http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

I suck at math so The numbers could be wrong, but its in the ball park of what others have said. around $350 for the minimum rate.

I figure I can do 25-40 good designs a year.
at 10-18 hours a shirt roughly.

say 20 are for clients at a flat rate of $350/per
and 5 contest wins, with a $1000 or higher payout.

and 10 for my own line.

Thats a high bar, but I think I can do it.
(ps its a late night so thanks for barring with my silly business plan)

I had fun with this thing too.
http://clientanalyser.freelanceswitch.com/

Sir Vay of 3700 freelancers
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Who are you?!

your prices are hurting my prices!

posted over 2 years ago by explodingtoes

154 Comments

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