<a href="http://annagoodson.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/less-is-not-always-more-especially-in-illustration/">Anna Goodson (illustration rep) on low pricing bankrupting the industry.</a> 2009-04-15T13:44:17-04:00 37 2009-04-14T17:00:21-04:00 true 0 16867 false false 1541 5738 1 2009-11-21T22:29:33-05:00 845 very good read and some more interesting articles there. too bad the color choice for the text/background is so poor. after a couple of minutes of reading i literally saw the text when turning my head from the computer. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T17:13:39-04:00 440609 3643 2009-04-14T17:13:39-04:00 <a href="http://www.gag.org/pegs/index.php">Here's</a> that book she was talking about. Ray for illustration educator of the year. Thank you sir. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T17:58:14-04:00 440656 506 2009-04-14T17:58:14-04:00 Great article and I agree wholeheartedly. I loathe seeing other GD'ers in the field charge $100 for a logo. It then fosters an attitude with clients that any logo is worth the last price they paid. Sure, you pay for experience and it all boils down to "getting what you pay for". Shame about the grammar in the article. That killed it for me =( 16867 Post 2009-04-14T18:03:00-04:00 440661 13163 2009-04-14T18:03:00-04:00 Definitely an interesting read. Thanks for this. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T18:08:25-04:00 440667 7093 2009-04-14T18:08:25-04:00 Great read man! thanks. spread the gospel my brutha!!!!! 16867 Post 2009-04-14T18:18:31-04:00 440673 1567 2009-04-14T18:18:31-04:00 I agree that illustrators/designers should get paid what they're worth, unfortunately, competition often undercuts perceived value which is the nature of the business. I don't think artists are intentionally trying to devalue their own work....they just want to get paid like everyone else. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T18:36:54-04:00 440698 12224 2009-04-14T18:36:54-04:00 <blockquote><cite>trustno1 said:</cite> I agree that illustrators/designers should get paid what they're worth, unfortunately, competition often undercuts perceived value which is the nature of the business. I don't think artists are intentionally trying to devalue their own work....they just want to get paid like everyone else.</blockquote> hence devaluing their work. I know thats shitty and sucks. but it's like a never-ending cycle. That's kind of why I don't really try and work with many of the companies on here cause it just sucks that so many people expect cheap art. I just don't want to charge (Cant afford to) cheap er on my rent.. er I mean.. my jobs. I know, I lose alot of potential work b/c of that but , I'm also trying to make a living out of this thing called Illustrating... I cant prosper nickel and diming... 16867 Post 2009-04-14T18:43:19-04:00 440704 1567 2009-04-14T18:44:30-04:00 I got about a fifth of the way through that. I had to stop reading because, as ez-kun said, the text was burning into my eyes. Not worth it haha But yeah, i've been losing plenty of work recently because of persisting on charging what i see as right. I am in a tight spot financially though, so if i wanted to, I'd drop my prices to get more work. That's an individuals decision and no-one else's. When people start saying what you should charge, or masses start declaring the same base price, it gets awfully close to price-fixing. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:06:22-04:00 440731 6884 2009-04-14T19:06:22-04:00 I like this price fixing idea, ready on three we all go up to $300/hr Ready 1. 2. 3. yay!! I can live in a house and eat foodz. No but really why argue for less money, thats backwards. People that need designers will still need designs. The smart ones will notice the difference. How many shitty shirts do you own? see you buy the good stuff too. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:09:22-04:00 440736 506 2009-04-14T19:12:26-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> I like this price fixing idea, ready on three we all go up to $300/hr Ready 1. 2. 3. yay!! I can live in a house and eat foodz.</blockquote> yeeeey, i can haz teeth! 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:11:17-04:00 440739 3643 2009-04-14T19:11:17-04:00 So would getting a rep be a good idea? Or one of those hire an illustrator clubs I see on the internets. It's odd that there isn't a union type deal for illustrators, unless I overlooked it. Might be a good idea to join up maybe. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:21:51-04:00 440749 506 2009-04-14T19:21:51-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> I like this price fixing idea, ready on three we all go up to $300/hr Ready 1. 2. 3. yay!! I can live in a house and eat foodz. No but really why argue for less money, thats backwards. People that need designers will still need designs. The smart ones will notice the difference. How many shitty shirts do you own? see you buy the good stuff too.</blockquote> I totally agree. The ones that drop their prices are generally of lesser quality, don't appreciate their own ability and effort or are uneducated about the effects to the industry. I may not be that great but i'm trying to improve as much as possible and appreciate the effort i put in so i won't charge lowball amounts. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:22:29-04:00 440750 6884 2009-04-14T19:22:29-04:00 <blockquote><cite>ThinkBaker said:</cite> That's kind of why I don't really try and work with many of the companies on here cause it just sucks that so many people expect cheap art. I just don't want to charge (Cant afford to) cheap er on my rent.. er I mean.. my jobs. </blockquote> I don't think anyone expects cheap art. well, some do but most don't. and to play the devil's advocate, if you're a startup clothing company like quite a few of us are (or aspiring to be) then getting a design at a reduced price is still a gamble no matter how you look at the cost. the artist still gets paid but you, the clothing company, has paid for the design, has to pay for printing, a website, advertising, etc., before you see a dime of that money back. even that isn't guaranteed. luckily, most of us aren't doing this for the money. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:23:54-04:00 440751 12224 2009-04-14T19:24:11-04:00 i think getting a day job is a good idea if you cant support yourself with designing... if you arent selling designs.. why lower price? get a day job and do work... come home design, sell a design here and there for more money... its a lot better in my opinion... but hey thats just me 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:24:39-04:00 440753 2870 2009-04-14T19:24:39-04:00 True... I see a lot of eager young artist, myself included that want to jump in and draw for money. But I'm thinking now that was a bad move, I don't know what I was in such a hurry for, I should have spent more of my time getting good first, Its like a baker selling the dough before the bread, all the ingredients are there but it's not the same thing feel me. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:25:18-04:00 440755 506 2009-04-14T19:25:18-04:00 <blockquote><cite>quakerninja said:</cite> True... I see a lot of eager young artist, myself included that want to jump in and draw for money. But I'm thinking now that was a bad move, I don't know what I was in such a hurry for, I should have spent more of my time getting good first, Its like a baker selling the dough before the bread, all the ingredients are there but it's not the same thing feel me.</blockquote> I could just copy and paste what you said, it applies too closely to me for comfort. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:26:21-04:00 440757 6884 2009-04-14T19:26:21-04:00 Also agree with Mr. napkins Having a day job is a good safety net. This summer line of mine was half freelance funded and half out of pocket, makes the dent in the bank account easer to handle. Probably would have been 100% freelance funded if I was smarter about pricing. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:29:48-04:00 440759 506 2009-04-14T19:34:18-04:00 It's interesting getting more and more into the "fine art" field such as whats fairly the case with people on this board coming from an agency background. I'm 32, been working in agencies for close to a decade now and am JUST NOW considering going freelance full time. There's no way to actually live off of freelance just getting out of school unless you are insanely talented and even then, I guarantee you that you lack the experience when it comes to the business side of things. I'm just now getting comfortable dealing with clients on a day to day basis when it comes to billing etc etc etc. Start small, get a day job, learn learn learn. My one piece of advice is that if you work for a bigger company and make a mistake, you make it on their dime. It's a lot more painful when you fuck up and can't eat for a few weeks because of it. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:51:28-04:00 440774 13163 2009-04-14T19:51:58-04:00 i like how they blacklist stock art illustrators 16867 Post 2009-04-14T19:53:28-04:00 440777 7336 2009-04-14T19:53:28-04:00 Jkrew and WetNaps is right.... day jobs are good... not 5- $100 dollar designs... a week. just sayin... 16867 Post 2009-04-14T21:11:00-04:00 440891 1567 2009-04-14T21:11:00-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Tender Branson said:</cite> I understand that it is crap when someone low balls you, but that's just the facts of life. If you stick to your guns, continue to roll out excellent work and prove you're worth it, then why worry about what the next guy is doing?</blockquote> i get where you are coming from and it seems like a no-brainer but people still need to understand why underselling is detrimental to the industry as a whole. Unfortunately its not as black and white as your analogy would suggest. A lot of experienced, accomplished illustrators still dont know the value of their work. If articles and communities like this didnt exist i still wouldnt know what to charge when approached by larger clients. Places like Walmart and even tee shirt printers have an established value for the goods and services that they sell. Since that value is established they model their business whichever way they want to stay competitive whether by offering exemplory service, cheaper goods, whatever. The illustration market isnt like that. It used to be, but ever since the internet its become like the wild west for pretty pictures, and no one knows what where the value is. Stock illustration resources are rounding up art like its gold and selling it, for virtually no return for the original artist. I think i read the twitter logo was purchased for 8 bucks. Which is pretty rediculous considering the amount of impressions that logo makes a day. Thats why everytime i see these arguments i cant just shrug it off however tired i am of seeing them. There needs to be some consistency with pricing and ultimately accountability amongst fellow artists. /me steps off the soapbox 16867 Post 2009-04-14T22:13:36-04:00 440980 1146 2009-04-14T22:14:53-04:00 I agree with the article on some points and disagree with parts of it. If you do design you should be able to set your prices for what you think you are worth. Thats the great part about living in America is the freedom to do what you want for work and if you are on your own to be able to set your prices. You have to earn clients and earn the right to raise your prices. Some little high school kid putting out crap one color designs with half the design taken from google images doesn't deserve $150. My point is charge what YOU want not what some article says, what emptees people tell you to do or anything you hear. Its your business so run it your way! 16867 Post 2009-04-14T22:16:16-04:00 440984 1067 2009-04-14T22:16:16-04:00 <blockquote><cite>Time Without the E said:</cite> My point is charge what YOU want not what some article says, what emptees people tell you to do or anything you hear. Its your business so run it your way!</blockquote> <img src="http://raulmarinhog.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/wrong-target.jpg"/> You're missing the point. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T23:06:35-04:00 441044 6468 2009-04-14T23:06:56-04:00 There is no need to make people argue about this anymore...regardless of what you and I think, you can't change somebody else's ethics. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T23:13:29-04:00 441055 785 2009-04-14T23:13:29-04:00 <blockquote><cite>4Sevens said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Time Without the E said:</cite> My point is charge what YOU want not what some article says, what emptees people tell you to do or anything you hear. Its your business so run it your way!</blockquote> <img src="http://raulmarinhog.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/wrong-target.jpg"/> You're missing the point.</blockquote> ......... 16867 Post 2009-04-14T23:21:13-04:00 441063 1067 2009-04-14T23:21:13-04:00 i agree but the punk rock in me wants to charge even less now just to rebel. 16867 Post 2009-04-14T23:21:26-04:00 441065 5847 2009-04-14T23:21:26-04:00 this is just a question for simple opinions. i have no stated voice in this matter since im on the other end of the designers. in the subject of royalties: would you rather a complete up front payment, for example, say 500. or would you rather lower that fee to 300 and receive a agreed upon royalty. I realize the importance of the size of brand or band, but just say that they are a fairly large brand. opinions? once again, thats not my view. just trying to offer ideas up 16867 Post 2009-04-14T23:26:08-04:00 441069 5678 2009-04-14T23:26:08-04:00 <blockquote><cite>levi! said:</cite> this is just a question for simple opinions. i have no stated voice in this matter since im on the other end of the designers. in the subject of royalties: would you rather a complete up front payment, for example, say 500. or would you rather lower that fee to 300 and receive a agreed upon royalty. I realize the importance of the size of brand or band, but just say that they are a fairly large brand. opinions? once again, thats not my view. just trying to offer ideas up</blockquote> I do work for royalty from timne to time, depending on the client. Mostly, when doing things for my friends who are starting up..i got as high as 50% of the profits. Sure, now i'm putting my trust in their skill to sell, and only then i'll get my money. But i would do it for 200-300 + royalties, for sure. (when waiting for royalties, it benefits the company more, as the artist is rooting for them and promoting his stuff:P) 16867 Post 2009-04-15T06:25:35-04:00 441416 3643 2009-04-15T06:25:52-04:00 <blockquote><cite>levi! said:</cite> in the subject of royalties: would you rather a complete up front payment, for example, say 500. or would you rather lower that fee to 300 and receive a agreed upon royalty. I realize the importance of the size of brand or band, but just say that they are a fairly large brand. </blockquote> i'd rather get money upfront and be done with it rather than wait for potential royalty payments twice a year. this idea that 'you only get paid if your shirt sells' nonsense is a company's way of saying they're too cheap to pay you imo 16867 Post 2009-04-15T07:14:51-04:00 441449 12224 2009-04-15T07:15:21-04:00 <blockquote><cite>trustno1 said:</cite> <blockquote><cite>levi! said:</cite> in the subject of royalties: would you rather a complete up front payment, for example, say 500. or would you rather lower that fee to 300 and receive a agreed upon royalty. I realize the importance of the size of brand or band, but just say that they are a fairly large brand. </blockquote> i'd rather get money upfront and be done with it rather than wait for potential royalty payments twice a year. this idea that 'you only get paid if your shirt sells' nonsense is a company's way of saying they're too cheap to pay you imo</blockquote> but you can think of it like this too: what if your design ends up selling by the hundreds? wouldn't it be a bummer to only get 500 if you could have gotten 7-800? well, sure, that's very optimistic talk, but you know, there are two sides of the coin. 16867 Post 2009-04-15T07:40:55-04:00 441459 3643 2009-04-15T07:40:55-04:00 <blockquote><cite>eZ-kun said:</cite> but you can think of it like this too: what if your design ends up selling by the hundreds? wouldn't it be a bummer to only get 500 if you could have gotten 7-800? well, sure, that's very optimistic talk, but you know, there are two sides of the coin.</blockquote> this would largely depend on the company selling your design. if it were a major retailer like urban outfitters or hot topic then yes, it would be foolish not to accept royalties. but most startups simply don't have the clout to shift that many t-shirts, unless of course you're somebody like threadless. there are so many variables to consider and ultimately it's the artist who has to make that decision. 16867 Post 2009-04-15T08:16:41-04:00 441468 12224 2009-04-15T08:16:41-04:00 Couldn't of said it better myself. Thanx Ray 16867 Post 2009-04-15T10:43:11-04:00 441516 1181 2009-04-15T10:43:11-04:00 <blockquote><cite>horsebites said:</cite> Couldn't of said it better myself. Thanx Ray</blockquote> 16867 Post 2009-04-15T10:54:47-04:00 441522 9706 2009-04-15T10:54:47-04:00 I struggle with this everytime I'm quoting someone. I can't bring myself to quote higher and I have no idea what I should be quoting. I feel like I do good stuff but I haven't a clue where I rank as a designer vs the big boys on here. I do t-shirt design as a side thing to my 9 to 5 and I guess I work pretty cheap, I don't want to fuck up the game for the pros but I like the extra work. 16867 Post 2009-04-15T12:42:08-04:00 441641 3168 2009-04-15T12:42:08-04:00 That was a good read, thanks. I agree with everything you guys say. Seeing as how I am just an art student trying to start out in the near future in this industry, hearing your opinions on prices has been wonderful. I never would have gone as low as some people on here, $50 is fucking ridiculous. $10 myspace logos are lame as shit, I wouldnt go less than $300 and even that seems cheap for a logo. Either way I agree with all you guys that are getting hurt by this. I cook, and goto school, and manage to live. So in the future if I get less sleep and get to charge a good price for some good work, all the better. I think it was Jimmy in a thread awhile ago that stated a new standard lowest price should be $175 (Not sure if it was you man) and I think that would be good. People who dont feel their work is up to par, should just not try and sell work. If you are in highschool and your friends think its hot shit but would pay you $20, just keep trying, dont cave in or anything. I think I am done now. 16867 Post 2009-04-15T12:51:18-04:00 441652 8810 2009-04-15T12:51:18-04:00 <blockquote><cite>edword said:</cite> I struggle with this everytime I'm quoting someone. I can't bring myself to quote higher and I have no idea what I should be quoting. I feel like I do good stuff but I haven't a clue where I rank as a designer vs the big boys on here. I do t-shirt design as a side thing to my 9 to 5 and I guess I work pretty cheap, I don't want to fuck up the game for the pros but I like the extra work.</blockquote> Deciding what to charge has to be difficult because there is no formula for this sorta thing. I try to view design as objectively as possible but it's not a perfect science. how much does an experienced designer with an impressive portfolio charge versus a hobby designer who does it on the side? In the end you charge what you feel your work is worth 16867 Post 2009-04-15T13:25:18-04:00 441700 12224 2009-04-15T13:25:18-04:00 Very good read Ray. I am much more inclined to read this because it doesn't feel like we are having a firey argument. That being said, here is my two cents on the whole pricing issue. I'll be honest and say that I charge slightly less than what you probably do for most projects, however, I do have a minimum fee that I never go under, no matter who the client is. I agree that there should be a certain standard, but I also recognize that a lot of bands (who make up most of my client base) don't have a huge budget to spend on merch, because that is their income. I can usually swing my standard rate for bands, and I do charge more for bands who I know can afford it and who want me to spend the time and get their money's worth. I don't want to undercut anyone else in the industry, and I'm pretty sure that I can say that I don't charge a little less to undercut anyone and get more business, but my pricing system has been consistently working for me. I have certainly made $300+ for designs, but not everyone can afford that. I was totally with you the last time this came up, I just didn't appreciate how belligerent it became. It felt like there was one group lighting torches and going after other people. I think your work should speak for itself. If you are good to work with and you do quality work, people will come to you no matter what your price is if they want it bad enough. It's the people who charge way less just to get business that piss me off. Designers do need to hold themselves to a certain standard. When someone charges under $100 (which is the lowest end of the spectrum you should ever go in my opinion) you are putting out what is probably shitty work at a shitty price, thus making people who charge more because of the hours we spend look like stuck-up pricks, which I know is not the case. /end 16867 Post 2009-04-15T13:44:17-04:00 441711 1541 2009-04-15T13:46:29-04:00